This chat was held in the America On Line Chatroom "Field of Dreams" on June 1, 2004, exclusively for the members of the America On Line Community's WRITING RIGHT members.
Elizabeth Delisi, a professional author, is one of the Hosts.

OnlineHost: *** You are in "Field of Dreams". ***
OnlineHost: Welcome to the Field of Dreams! Join the present writing discussion or find another at Keyword: Writers Corner. For more professions go to Keyword: Career Talk.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: I'm just glad I could be here THIS week. Third time's thecharm, right? :-)

FaithfullSpirit2: Liz, is there a topic today?

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Yes! A terrific topic. Karen MacLeod, my editor for my recent release, is here... and we're going to talk about the relationship with your editor, and working together

KMacLEOD323: Glad I got rid of my houseguests yesterday, and had a chance to recover from an SF fantasy con.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Sounds like a fun con, Karen. Anyone there that's we'd recognize? Besides you, of course. ;-)

RBOZO55: LOL I just want to have an editor.

KMacLEOD323: Lois McMaster Bijold was author guest -- this was Balticon 38, and their website may still be up. Interesting...very interesting. Heather Alexander was musical guest.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Oh, that's terrific. I'll bet it was fun to listen to her.

KMacLEOD323: I wasn't on panels. I'm still not well known...but an author I've edited for was there, and I supported her.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: I'm sure she appreciated that.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Musical guest?

RBOZO55: Any kind of support is appreciated.

KMacLEOD323: Yes.... later check out www.balticon.org. They have a writer guest, musical guest, and artist guest of honor.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Hi Tee, welcome!

Teegarner: Thank you Liz. Hi Everybody.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: We'll get going in a few more minutes, just giving everyone time to get here.

KMacLEOD323: I'm logging the chat, if someone misses it. HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Thanks, Karen. I always log, too, so we should be set.

KMacLEOD323: Mme Liz received a copy of the last chat we shared here.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Well, let's get going. Anyone who comes later can get a copy of the log to catch up. Our guests today are: Karen MacLeod, editor---and me! Karen was my editor on my recent release, SINCE ALL IS PASSING. So we're going to talk about the relationship between editor and author, how we worked together, etc.

HOST WPLC Race: Welcome to Writing Right! Liz and her editor share with us about the editor/author relationship.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Okay! We'll at least start off in protocol, and then see how it goes. Karen, why don't you start out by telling us a little bit about you-- your editing business, which publishers you edit for, etc. Handing over the mike to Karen. ;-)

KMacLEOD323: Author is the boss...so "go ahead, boss." I've been editing some 26 years, in both a fan realm and professional capacity. NBI, Liz's publisher has had me on their staff since 2001. My bio page with credentials is at: http://www.simegen.com/bios/klbio.html check it later. Handing mike back....

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: So...tell us, in general, how you edit a work. Do you read it all the way through first? Or make suggestions as you go? Do you have reference material standing by, or only if you need to look something up? Are there particular things you look for? Mistakes that are most common?

KMacLEOD323: Actually, no, in most cases, for a first read. I read it fresh, as any book purchaser might. I do have editing books nearby, and a group of people I can consult who are experts -- if I question something. Such as horse owners, pilots, chemists...providing a book has a need for this kind of advice.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Always good to have access to experts!

KMacLEOD323: A person can't know everything!

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: What's the most unusual or bizarre fact or bit of info that you've had to check?

KMacLEOD323: Well, the first book I did for NBI had a private plane. Only a few weeks earlier I went up in a small plane for the first time. I wasn't sure of something, though I THOUGHT from my experience I did know. I consulted my pilot friend for that. It depends on the book, and the situation.

RBOZO55: What do you think is the most often made error of new writers?

KMacLEOD323: Believing their manuscript is perfect -- it needs to be checked and critiqued by someone who is not so close to it...such as a friend, colleague, such -- BEFORE it goes to a publisher.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Good point, Karen!

KMacLEOD323: Most publishers today don't have editors on staff. An author seeking publication has to present the BEST book initially.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Definitely. So, let's go into more detail about how you and I worked together.

KMacLEOD323: Liz, your beliefs on this? SINCE ALL IS PASSING I believe was released before NBI got it? Even so, we tweaked it.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Yes, it was released initially from Avid Press in 1999, and underwent an editing process there. So that, combined with the fact that I'm also an editor, meant it didn't need as much editing as might be average.

KMacLEOD323: Go ahead...you start.... how did YOU see it, Liz, in our process.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: But still, as you mentioned, Karen, we are usually blind to our own mistakes, because we've seen our own words SO many times that we sort of skate over them without them really sinking in. ;-) It takes an objective eye to point out where things need correction, or might be improved and strengthened.

KMacLEOD323: That's typical of any author I've worked with....not seeing the pebbles through the forest.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Plus, each editor is an individual. While every good editor will catch, say, your spelling mistakes, each editor might have a different idea of how to strengthen a passage of dialogue, for example, or where more setting description is needed, etc.

KMacLEOD323: Never believe your spell checker. It's built for business, not fiction.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Exactly. It can't tell the difference between, for example, red and read, but there's a BIG difference.

KMacLEOD323: I do what's called a "line edit." I read everything. I check for continuity, I question things that make me puzzled. Does the character end up with a differently spelled name different appearance, later on.... little things.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Yes, all those things that the author is blind to because we've seen it so often in our minds, we forget that we set it down differently on paper.

KMacLEOD323: However, I SUGGEST as far as plot problems. Spellings, grammar I repair without question. If the author doesn't agree with my findings he/she has the right to reject my suggestions.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: So....Karen read through my manuscript and marked the changes she suggested. Then I read through her changes and made all the corrections I agreed with. There ended up being a few we discussed, and Karen was great, saying, "It's your book so you have to make the final decision."

KMacLEOD323: That's the way I work. It's Liz's vision -- not mine. A good editor doesn't tear apart a book to make it theirs.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: So there were a few things I wanted to keep as is--but most of her suggestions I took, and they made the book that much stronger.

KMacLEOD323: I appreciate that comment.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Once we had agreed on a final version, it went back to the publisher and moved through the printing process. I imagine there must be a lot of tongue-biting, Karen, when you edit, because you are a writer also, and must see lots of authors take their books in different directions than you would do if you were writing it.

KMacLEOD323: I'd rather edit than write. And no, I try to be honest with the author.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Honesty is good. :-) So, are there any questions for either of us?

KMacLEOD323: I hope they have a "thick skin" and can take honest critique. If they can't then they ask for another editor. I've never professionally published anything I've written...so I don't call myself "author."

RBOZO55: If they can't take an honest edit, then they shouldn't be writers.

Latinafemm4u: I just need to get back into the mix of thins...I've been I had writers block for so long...

KMacLEOD323: Smile. True, but I know a professional well known author who is now deceased, who hated criticism unless it was positive. Writing is not for those who want their egos stroked.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: I think how the edit proceeds depends on the author and the editor-- the editor needs to be tactful and encouraging, not brutal and nasty; and the author has to realize the editor has the best interests of the book in mind, and not get their back up at every suggestion. It's a partnership.

KMacLEOD323: That's true, Liz. Then again, I don't tend to be nasty. I'll show you where I think you've gone wrong, but YOU wrote the book, not me.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Exactly.

MYBLUEMOON1119: Assuming, as most of us here have, that the mss has been critted and corrected as well as possible before getting a real pro like yourself to read it ... what is the NEXT important detail for us to be aware of?

KMacLEOD323: I've been working with the owners of Simegen.com for 26 years, and they helped teach me to edit. They're re-releasing their old novels, and new ones, too...like Liz did with SINCE ALL IS PASSING, and yet I am still editing them again before they see the publisher's desk. Perfection before submission is crucial.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: True. If you're going to pay to have it edited, I'd say the next important thing is to choose the right editor for your book. Don't just choose by price alone. Check out their references, and make sure they're strong at editing your particular genre.

KMacLEOD323: Jean Lorrah had a galley proof that had to be done in 4 days, of 2 novels released in the 1980's. She had no time to do it, and asked me to do it for her. I found lots of things that needed repair, and had the galley errata ready in those 4 days. Doing the same word by word edit I did for Liz.

JerseyGirl331: What is the going rate for the type of editing you're talking about? I have never paid an editor to edit a ms

KMacLEOD323: It depends on how complicated and long the work is. Some editors start at $1.00 a page.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: I think it varies widely from editor to editor.

KMacLEOD323: When I work with NBI, its included in Liz's contract that the publisher has a editor for her.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: My current rates are $7/1000 words, which works out to an average of $1.75/page, I think! Math is not my strong suit. ;-)

KMacLEOD323: I usually ask the author to send me a synopsis of their work, and 3 chapters. I then quote them a price.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: So do you vary your price, Karen, depending on how much work has to be done?

KMacLEOD323: My low rate was $50 for a children's book, and my usual starting rate is $500 a novel. Essentially, yes, it depends on the quality of the sample I receive. It also helps if some people are friends, they get a lower rate.

RBOZO55: I know what a galley is, but what is errata? (Sorry if that is a stupid question.)

KMacLEOD323: Error sheet....Errata, good word to look up.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Mistakes. Errors. :-)

KMacLEOD323: No question is stupid in my opinion.

Satin Puzzle: Do you ever turn down a novel....for editing?

KMacLEOD323: Oh yes...and some I have edited, and not put on my resume because I am ashamed of the work. Not a good example of MY skills, because some novels just can't be helped. The author is a poor story teller.

JerseyGirl331: I've written a few like that

KMacLEOD323: I'm a book repairer...not a surgeon to reconstruct it. That's not the job of the editor.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: I've never turned down a book to edit unless I was too busy, but there have been some that really drove me insane. :-D

Satin Puzzle: What types of novels do you edit?

KMacLEOD323: This year, I turned down one which was a sequel to a horror of an edit that I did 2 years ago. No amount of money would soothe me.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: I know the feeling. ;-)

KMacLEOD323: A good editor should be able to edit anything offered. This author thought money could buy me. I wasn't that desperate... horror of a book, not horror genre..... the first novel drove me batty.

MYBLUEMOON1119: Then why do they get published ...the ones too bad to even be saved with a decent edit?

KMacLEOD323: Because I turned that sequel down, it opened me to having something else available that I did.

MYBLUEMOON1119: Why would a publisher even SEND that to an editor?

KMacLEOD323: Vanity presses will publish almost anything. This was vanity press. Something like PUBLISH AMERICA. You can get your work published through a vanity press, but many are not reputable.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Or, individuals may contact Karen (or me) to have their books edited BEFORE submitting. So it might be coming from the individual author, not a publisher.

KMacLEOD323: That's what the owners of Simegen.com do...I'm their resident editor. They SHOULD have me...they trained me. I'm also a freelance editor. People can hire me to edit for them.

Satin Puzzle: Do you usually have a general idea of which publishers a writer should submit what you've edited to? What a sentence...I'm still not wide awake.. lol

KMacLEOD323: I have a list of potential publishers by genre. I think Liz has one, also. I can suggest where to submit, but people can check individual publishers' websites for specifications and genre choices. You should always meet publishers guidelines to have the best shot at being published.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: When I edit, I try to suggest a publisher IF I feel the book is ready, and IF I know of a publisher looking for that type of book.

KMacLEOD323: Me, too.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: It's always exciting to have one of my customers' books accepted by a publisher! Makes it all worthwhile.

Satin Puzzle: How about agents?

KMacLEOD323: Makes you feel great, Liz. Agents are sometimes useful....but not necessary I think.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: I don't have an agent and haven't needed one so far, though I must admit it would be nice to have one, to negotiate and to take the burden of submitting.

Satin Puzzle: Do you use an attorney for the legal work?

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: I haven't. The couple of times I've wanted something changed in a contract {{Note: The AOL program failed for most participants in the chat, and the chat had to be picked up at this point.))

KMacLEOD323: You were saying something about not needing an agent Liz... I wanted people to check out an interview I had with Sharon Jarvis...

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Yes, so far I haven't needed an agent, I've simply asked for the changes I wanted and that worked, but I've only worked with small publishers. With big ones, I think I'd need an agent at least.

KMacLEOD323: Sharon Jarvis used to be acquisitions editor for Doubleday. She's an agent, and owns a publishing house.

Satin Puzzle: Liz...I've been hearing some things I'm not happy with about agents.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: What have you heard, Satin?

Satin Puzzle: Charging for phone calls, etc. ..up front.

KMacLEOD323: Well, Sharon Jarvis gives some good advice in my interview with her http://www.simegen.com/writers/spotlights/nonfiction/1101/sjarvis.html

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: I've heard that many agents do charge for postage, xeroxing, and phone calls, so you need to find that out before you submit.

Satin Puzzle: It seems to me they don't need to bother doing their job if they already have a fee up front from writers.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: I've got the log but in two pieces, since I got booted also, but if anyone wants it, they can e-mail me.

KMacLEOD323: Lawyers do the same thing...they charge for office expenses.

Satin Puzzle: After the fact, but ahead of time...seems wrong.

FaithfullSpirit2: the one time I used a lawyer it was a flat fee

KMacLEOD323: For my divorce it was NOT a flat fee.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Any more questions before we go?

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Next week, Suzanne Marie Calvin, author of FIONA'S FANCY, will discuss "Finding Your Voice."

KMacLEOD323: And as far as editing, people build up a relationship with their editor, and may keep them as editor no matter where they go or what they write.

Ajcates: thanks for the chat, liz, race, kmac :)

KMacLEOD323: One NBI author had me edit 2 of his books, he was so pleased.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Glad to see you all, hope you can come back again next time!

KMacLEOD323: My pleasure to have been invited.

Satin Puzzle: Yes, thank you

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: What's your website URL again, Karen?

KMacLEOD323: my personal website with credentials is http://www.simegen.com/bios/klbio.html

HOST WPLC Race: thanks Karen

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: And my website is www.elizabethdelisi.com with the "Editing" button at the bottom. ;-)

KMacLEOD323: You're welcome.

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: Thanks for coming, Karen.

KMacLEOD323: Thanks for the invite, Liz. Any time.

HOST WPLC Race: be creative, and prosper all

Satin Puzzle: Nice workshop...if AOL would behave..

HOST WPLC Race: now that's the truth Satin

HOST WPLC MmeLiz: See you all next week.

KMacLEOD323: Bad AOL...BAD! Bye.....feel free to contact me.

I have always believed, and stressed to "my" authors, that their story is theirs - I'm only here to help them make it the very best possible story it can be. I don't always agree with content, but it's not my place to do so. Spelling, punctuation, and sentence structure, now - that's a different thing entirely...

I know some people believe that you should be able to work with any author/editor, but sometimes personalities just don't mesh. When that happens, it's to the author's benefit to get a different editor. Otherwise she/he runs the risk of getting a poorly edited story that may not do well in the market.

My definition of Freelance work: An author has written a novel. They wish to find an editor to polish that novel before a potential publisher sees it. They have heard of me through "the grapevine" or through a publishing house or some other means (for example, my name is in many of the books I have edited, listed on the copyright page as editor). They contract with me to edit their book, and pay me an agreed upon amount, in portions, to edit the work. I have also done freelance work when a publishing house says "I have a novel. It needs an editor." They give me a synopsis of this book, and ask, "Do you want to do this book? If so, what will you charge, and what will you do for that money?" They then negotiate the contract for me, and have the author contact me with the manuscript.

What I do ---
I copy edit (grammar, punctuation and spelling) of the content of the manuscript. I check for continuity errors. I pare all extraneous words out...and can point each of them out. All the little IF, AND, BUT, THEN, THEY etc. I check for smooth flow, and help tighten the manuscript, WITH the author. I make suggestions... I question what the author "means" if something is unclear. Do you mean "a" or do you mean "b" I do try to encourage the author with their work. If I see they have potential (in my opinion) I try to point that out, and urge them to continue to write when they get discouraged. That's "Karen" and not necessarily what every editor does.

I am NOT a book "doctor." I do NOT re-write the book. I do not LIKE to give writing lessons to the author that truly writes dreadfully...giving writing lessons is not the job of an editor.

If you have other suggestions on how I might do the editing for you, please let me know. My comments within a manuscript I'm editing are only suggestions. The author is free to keep or discard any of them, in my opinion. We would work together to make this the best manuscript it can be.

What I wish writers would do and not do before I see their manuscript --
DO: Spell and grammar check the entire work. Cut as many extraneous words, and make the work flow before an editor sees it. Write your work, and let it sit for a time (probably about a month) and then re-read it with a "fresh eye" to see what changes might be made -- and make them.

NOT DO: Expect the editor to write their novel for them. They can take the editor's questions about what is already written, and the editor's comments of what the editor has read. Using that information they craft the work; an editor does not.

This is from Linnea Sinclair, an author friend of mine, who has been able to get a contract with Bantam, after being published by small houses, such as NBI. She writes in part...

I landed Bantam (and oh DANG they pay good bucks!) is (not necessarily in order of importance)

1 - I got an agent (let me qualify - a reputable agent)
2 - I spent a lot of time promoting my books
3 - I entered my books in contests and finaled/won
4 - I built a fan base through newsletter, website, contests, chats, published articles, etc.
5 - I put 2 through 4 into a package and sent same to agent, along with my books

My agent said one of the things that impressed Bantam was that I was aggressive; I'd already built a fan base, I wasn't afraid to get out there and do the dog-and-pony show. I was willing to put 'feet on my faith'.

I'd only subbed to the agent (and through the agent to various houses) my published books as 'proof' -- I was really looking to sell my WIP. When Bantam contacted me agent with an offer for my backlist, first, I was floored. But she (my agent) said they wanted something they could put out right away and my books provided that. (Right away in NY meaning in about a year).

I'd always heard you can't--or it's damn difficult-- to sell a previously published small press book to NY, though CJ Barry did that with Dorchester/Leisure (and there are a few others, names escape me).

This proves it Can Be Done.

Turn around time from the date I contacted the agent to date of offer/sale was about two and a half months. I'm really floored.

===========
How to summarize your book for publicity purposes.

Character + Conflict + Hook. This isn't my formula -some famous writer posted it somewhere and I learned about it in a workshop. But it works for tag lines great and is a good starting point for a blurb. WHY SHOULD WE CARE? Why we should care should be in the blurb ...which is a shorter synopsis...blurbs are no more than 75 words.

What you DON'T want is to give away too much of the plot conflicts or problems so that the reader 'figures out' what happens. You want them to question. You want them to BUY IT.

Karen's sample synopsis for an NBI novel I edited ----- Would you want to review the book based on the synopsis here?
Andie is reporter for a Geelong newspaper, having the chance to follow explorers Burke & Wills into the great unknown center of Australia. He sets off 3 weeks behind them making his own way through the outback, in search of the Expedition, and the one great newspaper story that will give him fame, and his family a secure future. Jessie, his wife, is left to mind their store in Geelong, but is robbed, molested and loses the shop. Jessie obtains various jobs to keep herself and her 10 year old deaf son, Ian, until Andie's planned return, always finding failure. Andie's brother, Robert, comes out to Australia from Scotland by sailing ship and meets his life's love on board. Fate and determination mold the lives of this family in the wilds of Australia in 1860. What will become of them?