Session Start: Sun May 14 11:29:55 2000
<Bonnee> Are we all ready to talk POV today? Does anyone have any questions? It's usually easiest for me to start with a question.
<JL> How do you know if the author has chosen the correct POV character?
When do you ask yourself that question -- as an editor? And once asked, what do you look for to find out?
<Bonnee> Excellent! Thanks, JL I never really ask the question, it's usually pretty apparent when someone's taken the wrong one.
<N`omi> it feels wrong
<Bonnee> Exactly! Okay, so how do we know what to choose and who to choose?
<JL> As a writer, I test for POV correctness by asking "Whose story is this, really?" And "What is that story in one sentence?"
<AnnMarie> I do it by who's driving the story at that particular moment
<Bonnee> Every scene is established to impart something...
<Jean> Does it bother you when a story is all in one POV except for one or two passages? Or don't you notice? (Happens to be a teeth-on-edge for me.)
<Bonnee> LOL! So true, JL. Easiest question when establishing POV is to ask that one. Start by "whose story is this." A scene sets up a conflict.. regardless of how big or small. Will she survive that job interview? The obvious choices for POV would be the interviewer and the applicant. But which one do you choose? Go to the big picture... Whose story is this?
<AnnMarie> Depends on who's making the decision.
<Jean> Could be either. BUT for 99 out of 100 stories, the interviewee if it's her story.
<Bonnee> Also, another thing to ask yourself is what are you trying to establish in this scene.
<Jean> OTOH, you could write a whole story in which different people observe the protagonist.
<Bonnee> Do you want to show character from the inside or outside?
<Jean> A writer has to learn how to do both.
<Bonnee> (Jean, remind me to come back to that one because I have a perfect book. Okay, so the other question you have to ask is who has the most to lose? Obviously the applicant, so the obvious choice is from her POV. She's got to do well in order to secure the job. She has all her idiosyncrasies, but would we know them.
<Jean> Unless the interviewer is about to lose his job for cause.
<Bonnee> all if it were told from the POV of the interviewer.
<AnnMarie> Unless the interviewer is manipulating her, for example.
<Jean> Or he is falling in love with the candidate.
<Bonnee> Good point, Jean and AM, so this all leads back to plot.
<Jean> Or he is plotting a crime he can use her in.
<Bonnee> This is such a subtle scene, but one of them, most likely, will be a throwaway character.
<Jean> It's back to "Whose story is it?"
<Bonnee> Never seen from again. Exactly. Whose story is it? OTOH and here's where it gets tricky. Usually, a scene is told from the POV of the person with the most to lose, BUT, it can be done quite well from the POV of the person who has everything to gain. IOW, the person who's holding the cards and can take away what the protagonist wants. But it's got to be done with a major secondary character to be effective. The above example where he's falling in love with her (Hence, the reason most romances use both the POV of the hero and the heroine). OTOH, it can be effective to use the other person's POV. POV can also be used to relay information that the character could never get on their own. If the interviewer knew the job would be transferred in 6 months to Sierra Leone.
<Jean> Also depends on the effect you are creating.
<AnnMarie> Or to deny them information ... although this is tricky because the reader can feel cheated.
<Bonnee> That could make a huge difference to the applicant, but there's no way that person would know. Yes, but what drives POV is motivation. The interviewer can't give out that information since this person hasn't been hired. OTOH, knowing and learning that she's a young, single mother.... See where I'm going?
<MargareTZ> yes
<Bonnee> It can be done and done effectively, but it's got to be pertinent and immediate.
<Jean> Is it his story about how he doesn't care about the effect on her? Or her story about getting shafted?
<Bonnee> Yes. Okay, Jean, you brought up a storyline where it's told by everyone but the main character.
<Jean> Or are they going to fall in love and move to Sierra Leone together!
<Bonnee> Remember I once spoke about a book called "The Outsider"?
<Jean> Yes--an experimental type of story.
<Bonnee> Written by Penelope Williamson. The book uses every POV except that of the hero and he's the outsider.
<Jean> I haven't read that. Ah--Lone Ranger Syndrome.
<Bonnee> He instigates the plot and the book revolves around him and how his appearance changes
everyone in an entire community, but never once does the author use the hero's POV.
<Jean> Who WAS that masked man? That could be extremely effective.
<Bonnee> A friend of mine and I argue about one page near the end of the book. She swears that's the only time the author goes into his POV.
<Jean> POV slip?
<Bonnee> I disagree. She still uses the POV of the son of the heroine. The son finds him in an alley and it's told in the boy's POV.
<Jean> Then where is the problem?
<Bonnee> Because it uses no internalization in the scene, it's not entirely clear whose POV, but I'll swear on my dogs' lives that she's in the boy's POV. Wonderful book and a great one to study POV if you actively watch for it.
<Jean> POV is one of the things I'm good at (plot isn't). I had quite a challenge in one of my Trek books, SURVIVORS.
One of the main characters would die before the end, and all the readers already knew it!
<Bonnee> (I'll mirror that sentiment, Jean. That's why I'm now an editor and no longer write. <g>)
<AnnMarie> Whereas I can plot all day long ... but getting it all on paper has been my nemesis.
<Bonnee> I've seen that work very well, Jean
<Jean> It works very well in SURVIVORS by breaking several rules.
<Bonnee> I can fix a plot. I have trouble creating one, Ann Marie <g>
<Jean> There are parallel plots, one now, one twenty years in the past--the first "no no."
<Bonnee> Well, I'll be honest. Rules only exist to help you learn a craft. Once you know what you're doing and why you're doing it, ALL rules are meant to be broken.
<AnnMarie> Hear, hear Bonnee!
<Jean> I probably couldn't have done it if I hadn't already written about ten books.
<Bonnee> Exactly, Jean. Once you know where you're going, it's easy to break those rules. But you need to know them first.
<Jean> Right!
<Bonnee> So, that old rule of thumb "One POV per scene"?
<AnnMarie> Exactly
<Bonnee> Yes, for a beginner writer. It's only by sticking to one POV that they can learn all the other stuff, like how to portray emotions without head-hopping. And how to move the plot forward without resorting to everyone moving about in their own little internalizations.
<AnnMarie> I caught more than a bit of head-hoppin in Born of Fire
<Bonnee> It forces dialogue, which beginning writers hate to write <g>
<Jean> Verges into show-don't-tell problems.
<Bonnee> Exactly!
<AnnMarie> Not all ... I've -always- adored writing dialogue
<Bonnee> And that's okay. My best strength when I was writing was "place"
<Jean> Me, too--I think if your characters talk to you, you don't have trouble writing dialogue.
<Bonnee> I could create a setting that would have you spitting dirt (I began with westerns)
<Jean> I tend to leave out descriptions.
<Bonnee> It wasn't description per se. I could simply set a realistic scene in about three paragraphs.
<Jean> Have to tell myself to go back and put in where the heck they are!
<Bonnee> It was the rest of the book that gave me fits <g>
<Jean> But then, I'm a big rewriter.
<Bonnee> Anyway, you need the rules in the beginning so you can develop all the other talents
you'll need to pull off a complete book and do it well. But none of those rules apply once you've learned them. The only golden rule is to write a good book.
<Jean> But there are purposes to various POVs.
<Bonnee> Yes, there are. But you have to experiment with all of them in order to find the one that works.
<Jean> It's easier to create emotion with one or two tight POVs.
<Bonnee> Yup. Keeps the focus narrow
<Jean> If you DON'T want the reader tied in knots, use universal.
<JL> You can play tricks on the reader using First Person.
<Jean> That's why action/violence writers use universal.
<Bonnee> I'll be honest. I don't like omniscient unless it's a prologue where you need to introduce something before the book happens.
<AnnMarie> Actually one of the best points I heard was to vary how tight you held third to control the depth of emotion.
<Bonnee> I like to get inside a character's head.
<Jean> Interesting, though--you do the same hard-boiled story inside a tight POV and you get a rep for being terribly violent. Mickey Spillane isn't really any more violent than other hard-boiled detectives. It's the tight POV.
<Bonnee> Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't call Laurell K. Hamilton violent (even though a lot of people die). She packs a lot of emotion into her books. And I'm downright exhausted when I finish reading one.
<AnnMarie> It's how tight she holds PoV during the action scenes.
It is possible to do a very shallow first as well as third ... it all depends on how far into the characters head the writer goes
<Bonnee> She writes first-person POV.
<MargareTZ> Cherryh is exhausting too.
<JL> I'm working on getting us a POV article from Cherryh for our workshop.
<JL> As an Editor, Bonnee, would you reject a manuscript with say POV errors at the rate of oh, 3 per chapter, throughout the book? Or would you ask for a rewrite? In other words, how much do you rely on skill with POV to determine the skill-level of the writer, so you'd know whether they have the ability to fix the flaws?
<Bonnee> If they've got the skill to write POV, then I'd work with them.
But the rest of the writing would have to be top notch for me to invest that kind of time.
Basically, with 3 POV errors per chapter, we're talking an entire overhaul and I'd have trouble with that. When I reject a book, I always try to give constructive advice.
POV might be one of them (has been, in several cases <g>).
<JL> How much time would you expect to spend with an author editing a novel? Can you say oh, 100 hours per novel? Or 10 hours per 50,000 words?
<Bonnee> It depends on the writing. I've spent upwards of 60-80 hours editing and as little as 6 hours. As long as the quality is there, I don't mind working with the author. But there has to be a "complete" package. All the goods are there, they just need to be shined up a bit. And, I also have to admit, that as we get more books and more submissions, I have less and less time to work with anyone. That's the part that sucks. Sometimes it's simply rewriting one scene. That's what I call a quick fix. That's doable and easy. If it's revamping an entire book and that's more time-consuming, I tend to lean more towards rejection. I'll offer them advice on how to revamp, but then it's up to them. They can work on it and then re-submit. I've had several authors do that.
<Jean> These workshops are supposed to help our students reach the doable and easy stage.
<Bonnee> I hope I'm helping some... <g>
<MargareTZ> in many different ways you are helping a lot, Bonnee!
<AnnMarie> You are definitely helping
<Jean> We appreciate your teaching very much!
<JL> So POV can be a rejecting point for you, if it telegraphs that the author doesn't have the skill to take a two line suggestion and do an effective revision that
eliminates the errors?
<Jean> Our summer project is to work out a safe and efficient critiquing setup.
<Bonnee> Yes, to be honest. I haven't got time to work with a newbie. I admit that.
I haven't the time to cull one author when I've got 10 manuscripts already under contract and awaiting my editor's pen. And this is just what's on my desk right now. 10 ready for editing and another 30 submissions to read.
<JL> The wages of success, Bonnee - this is exactly what the Manhattan editors are up against.
<Bonnee> And I want to complete all this by the end of June when my girls are out of school.
<JL> And it's why we wanted to launch this school -- because writers who want to work in the e-book field need to understand just that point -- the editor's time must be conserved. To make a sale, you must be easy to work with.
<Bonnee> I've got books scheduled for release... I think I'm up to November
by now. It's not that I need them easy. I need them to hone the craft in critique groups. Enter contests.
<Bonnee> When they're consistently getting positive feedback, that's when you make the jump and try submitting
<Jean> Lois and I sold our book to Crossroads in a week three months ago. Now they are so swamped they are taking months to answer.
<Bonnee> Yup. My submissions are closed until September. And we closed the doors on April 1st.
<JL> So what do you look for in an author's handling of POV that says to you "All I have to do is two sentences in an email and she'll rewrite this whole thing so it works." What main skill with POV says the author knows what she's doing?
<Bonnee>She can get into the character's head and convey the "whole" scene without needing to jump all over. POV is more than just the character you're in. It's being able to relay what's happening around the character as well.
<JL> CONTESTS: Bonnee -- would you like to devise our next writing contest for us? (not run the contest -- but set up the specifications for what can be submitted)
<Bonnee> Yes, it's all influenced by that character and their belief systems, etc, but a writer needs to keep their character aware.
<Jean> Judging, Jacqueline. Somebody has to judge it.
<JL> Yes, Judging!!!
<Bonnee> Talk to me about it, JL. I'll be glad to work out something.
<JL> OK, we'll see, Bonnee --
<Bonnee> I did just final judge my first contest last month. Going to the Conference in 3 weeks to present the award to the winner. That was a REAL honor. <G> I was pleased as anything.
<JL> So, with POV you're saying that if a writer can handle POV SHIFTS smoothly, and knows what POV to use to convey what information, you would assume they had
the skill to take quick editorial direction and not soak up a lot of your valuable time?
<Bonnee> Yes. That's it in a nutshell.
<Jean> That's assuming they have plot and character skills as well.
<Bonnee> POV will tell me that a writer knows who their main character is and where they're going.
<N`omi> Bonnie: how was judging a contest different from Editor? Did you look at the
piece differently? (not counting that as a judge, you do not ask for rewrites!)
<Bonnee> N'omi, it was different and yet the same. As an editor, I would have read each piece once. That's it. My final decision would have been made upon the initial read. As a judge, I read each piece 3 times before deciding (just so I could avoid that "personal opinion" stuff). So I looked much closer as a judge than I ever would have as an editor.
<JL> OK, so SMOOTH SHIFTING POV - what constitutes A SMOOTH SHIFT?
<Bonnee> A smooth shift is seamless. You move into another person without being obvious. Usually, it's done through dialogue or some kind of movement.
But, also and this is the important thing, there needs to be a GOOD reason to change POV.
<JL> Do you look for shifting POV between chapters? Between paragraphs? Between scenes?
<Jean> How about TOO SMOOTH? Suddenly in the midst of things you realize you've changed heads.
Then you wonder when it happened.
<Bonnee> Too smooth can be a problem. A reader needs to know where she is at all times. Too smooth will only confuse her.
<Jean> I always put a # where POV changes, unless it's a new chapter. There should be some sort of transition at the point of change.
<N`omi> what is a #, please, Jean?
<Jean> It's a mark that tells the typesetter to leave an extra blank line.
<N`omi> ahh thanks Jean!
<Bonnee>She means a scene break. And, actually, don't break just because you've changed.
<N`omi> ahh, thank you, Bonnie!
<Bonnee> As for how often? As often as you need to and then divide by half. <g>
<Bonnee> Most writers (especially beginners) change POV much too often.
<JL> What I look for as a reviewer is the way the reader's eye "follows the ball" -- the plot direction, the point where CONFLICT is happening -- the POV has to stay ON THAT CONFLICT LINE or the reader loses track of whose head
they're in and then doesn't care about the book.
<Bonnee> A scene break should only happen when you're moving either through time or moving locations. Exactly, JL!
<Jean> Yes!
<N`omi> I have seen designed line to indicate change ... within the chapter.. is that more acceptable?
<Jean> Often a shift in POV carries you back in time a few minutes or seconds to pick up how the other character is seeing things.
<Bonnee> Chapters can have several scenes. You can have three scenes in a chapter and each happen in a different location. Unless you
physically move the characters from one location to the next, you'll break the scene. Double blank line or some indication (typesetters like them. I don't need them because I don't deal with hard copy).
<JL> When your POV changes shift smoothly to follow the CONFLICT, the reader is willing to follow along with you. The key question is "what will happen next?" and when the "happen next" is TO the other person, you shift
POV and follow that other person who is in the midst of the action,
making decisions that change the options available to the first POV
character.
<Jean> Detailing those physical moves for no reason is something newbies do.
<Bonnee> Yes... er, to both. <g>
<Jean> They need to analyze WHY successful authors do it, and WHEN they do it.
<Bonnee> Okay, another analysis . Nora Roberts.
<AnnMarie> Also how to pace it so the end scene conflict carries the story through the lull of the beginning of the next scene
<Bonnee> The woman changes heads like I do socks. But she does it so damn well, you don't mind.
<AnnMarie> Jude Deveroux does that too ... nearly every paragraph in some places
<Jean> Haven't read her, so I don't know.
<Bonnee> I spent one entire summer analyzing her work. She shifts POV with a movement and dialogue. Nora Roberts also uses very few tag lines, which is why you get movement.
<Jean> You can clue the reader by simply naming the new POV character.
<Bonnee> I read about 30 of her category romances back-to-back.
<JL> But the reason to shift POV is to follow the DEVELOPMENTS of the story, not to feed the reader information you can't figure out any other way to convey.
<Bonnee> (Have had trouble reading any of her books since, but I learned a lot.)
<JL> Bonnee - your method of study of this craft is flawless. No wonder you've got it down so pat.
<Bonnee> Agreed. Don't change POV simply to convey information
that could be handled otherwise. That's cheating and
"cheap". I don't know about flawless. <g> I just took
it seriously when I was learning to write. Took that info and conveyed
it into becoming a better editor than I ever was a writer. But I would
take a new author and then study them. Read everything I could get my
hands on. Nora Roberts is a master of dialogue and how to get rid of
tag lines. Anne Stuart is a master of using the POV of anyone but the
main character.
<AnnMarie> Looks like I'm going to have to suffer through reading some of Roberts' <cringing>
<Bonnee> All of her books are Gothic in style. "I know I'm not supposed to do this, but I'm going to anyway." <g>
<JL> Which is my other point about SMOOTH SHIFTING POV -- reading a writer who is shifting POV to convey information, you feel like a passenger in a student driver's car -- never sure you're not about to get in a wreck. The writer must CONTROL the material, and one way to do that is to control POV.
<Bonnee> Try Roberts' J.D. Robb series. Futuristic mysteries. Very good. Those and her oxymoron books. <G>
<AnnMarie> Thanks, Bonnee
<AnnMarie> The control of information and rapidly shifting PoV can work well in comedy.
<Bonnee> Exactly, JL!!! POV is one of the few things a writer MUST keep control of.
<Bonnee> When you're writing, you tend to find things cropping up. Plot points, little tidbits you never thought of before. POV cannot be manipulated the same way you can move everything else. It must always serve a purpose.
<Jean> That's why it's best for beginners to stick to one or at most two POVs.
<Bonnee> If you can learn POV, the rest is a piece of cake. Yes, Jean. That's why that rule exists. Until you can get a handle on POV, you'll never achieve the rest.
<JL> So if you feel from the way a writer is handling POV that they are in control of their material, especially the emotional intensity, would you be willing to try to work with them to develop other skills? Would you expect it to take them less time to catch on to a needed technique than a writer who had shaky POV control?
<Jean> I still prefer using only one or two.
<Bonnee> Yes, JL. Absolutely. I'm working with an author right now. She's going back for her third rewrite.
<JL> Was this the one you mentioned earlier?
<Bonnee> Actually, no, JL. This is another author.
<AnnMarie> I prefer using my protags and one or maybe two others
<Bonnee> She's got POV down pat. It's some minor plot points that need to be straightened.
<JL> So if you see firm POV control, you expect the writer knows how to PLOT?
Even if there's an error in this novel?
<Bonnee> Yes. Plots are easy to fix. Okay, another example. Our to-date best-selling novel.
<Bonnee> Her book was flawless and her POV was handled beautifully. (Course, she's multi-print
pubbed, so she ought to know <g>)
<JL> Which novel is that?
<Bonnee> Anyway, she needed to add one scene to the book. Just one scene. She left one major plot point hanging. We tied that up and the book is wonderful.
<MargareTZ> what Is an epublishing best seller?
<Bonnee> This is Give Me
Tonight. This book has sold over 5,000 copies
<Jean> In how long a time?
<JL> So really, as an editor, when you search your slushpile for publishable material, you are really evaluating MS's by the way the writer handles POV?
<Bonnee> I don't actively look for books with strong POV. It's not a conscious thing. But good POV will drag me into the character. Drag me into the character and you'll grab me with the plot.
So, POV is important because it's the bond that pulls the reader into the book.
<JL> So essentially you're saying we should have a COURSE in POV?
<Bonnee> You could, JL. Yes, I do feel it's that important.
<JL> It's that important to handle it right, in order to make that first sale?
<Bonnee> (Jean, that book has been selling almost a year). Yes. Put the book in the wrong POV and you've created the wrong book. It gets awkward. You find yourself jumping around because you can't get the right information across to the reader.
<JL> This is very valuable information for the beginning writer -- and now it's 4pm. Can you tell us about the one you skipped over earlier?
<Bonnee> I think I got back to that one question.... telling from everyone but the main character. Read the book called
The Outsider by Penelope Williamson
<JL> Bonnee. Do you want to show character from the inside or outside?
And here's what you said earlier:
<JL> "<JL> <Jean> A writer has to learn how to do both.
<Bonnee> Exactly. Both must be done. And the reader really gets a handle on character by seeing how the inside meshes with the outside. You can't have someone tell someone else that they're kind and then fire someone on Christmas Eve.
<Bonnee> This is how POV is utilized to build character
<Bonnee> They can't love art and then actively work to close down a local
gallery.
<JL> My first sale, HOUSE OF
ZEOR, is told entirely from one character's POV, but the actual POV lead character is the OTHER protag.
<Jean> That may be the reason so many readers get the wrong impression of HoZ.
<JL> POV as plot-carrying device, POV as a characterization tool, POV as an emotion-regulating device -- we're covered a lot of territory here.
<Jean> Jacqueline was doing a SF thing--using the nearly-human character as POV to
introduce the more alien, exotic being. But it made the OBSERVED character much more of a hero than he really is.
<JL> Yes, Jean -- that's the point -- GLAMOUR created by a POV
technique.
<Bonnee> That's okay, too. This is one way to manipulate the use of POV by comparing the differences rather than the
similarities
<JL> The POV character is never glamorous to the reader -- but OTHER characters can be. Gandalf comes to mind.
<Jean> Right! The POV character is vulnerable.
<Bonnee> Oh, before I forget also!!!! Next week I'll be in Harrisburg, PA for a conference. (Can't forget to say that before I leave <g>)
<JL> So no class next week? The week after then? What about a homework exercise on POV?
<Jean> We didn't really talk about 1st person.
<Bonnee> What kind of an exercise do you feel up to? <g>
<JL> OK, gang, any suggestions here?
<Jean> 1st person is the hardest POV, and new writers always want to start with it.
<MargareTZ> analyze a favorite book in 1st?
<Bonnee> I love first person POV. Difficult as all get out, but wonderfully effective.
<MargareTZ> or analyze one that fails because of POV errors
<Bonnee> Can be used as a learning tool simply to learn how to stay in character
<AnnMarie> I've played with first, but I don't have the skill set for it yet. Varley is a master of first person.
<Jean> You'll find more 1st person short stories than novels.
<Bonnee> Only because most print houses don't like 1st person POV
<Bonnee> *they* feel it doesn't' sell.
<MargareTZ> Elizabeth Peters -- Amelia Peabody series
<Jean> And then you get things like Dr. Watson-first. Holmes is the protagonist there.
<AnnMarie> Hmmm ... 500 word vignettes in the various voices?
<JL> How about we read and analyze a novel or story -- and try to IMITATE it?
<Bonnee> Works for me. <g>
<JL> OK, suggestions for the piece to analyze?
<JL> Something easily available -- ?
<Jean> "Why I Live at the P. O."
<Bonnee> Guilty Pleasures
<N`omi> I like AnnMarie's
<Bonnee> <g>
<JL> - oh, I loved that book. It's in pb now.
<AnnMarie> That works for me Bonnee ... but I don't know if everyone has read it.
<Jean> What's Guilty Pleasures?
<Bonnee> They've got two weeks. It's one of her shortest books
<N`omi> I have not
<JL> Anyone here would have a hard time getting hold of GUILTY PLEASURES?
<Bonnee> Guilty Pleasures by Laurell K. Hamilton
<MargareTZ> e-book?
<N`omi> I will have to see if the library has it
<Bonnee> Amazon.com carries it if a local store doesn't. Paperback.
<JL> Library would very likely have these -- they're best sellers.
<AnnMarie> I would recommend ... but then I love that book.
<Bonnee> Her newest, Obsidian
Butterfly, is her first hardcover. Yeah! Isn't that a great book? I loved Rob's book.
<AnnMarie> That was what got me reading ebooks
<JL> Yes, and it's very very WELL WRITTEN -- though some of the reviews on amazon.com indicated her fans didn't like it. I think that's because it's off the story arc. I just did a blazing review of BUTTERFLY
for my July
2000 column -- terrific book.
<Bonnee> (that's an ebook sold by my company)
<AnnMarie> I don't like using Hamilton because her English is so poor
<JL> Well, in your take-off on her character, clean up the English. OK, the idea with this one is not necessarily that you have to write a VAMPIRE piece because the book is a vampire novel.
<Jean> I'll refrain from commenting on copyediting.
<Bonnee> Tell you what.... you can have your choice. Either Upper West Side Story (an ebook) or
GUILTY PLEASURES
- (paperback). Use either piece for the work.
<JL> The exercise is about POV -- so you have to write from FIRST PERSON and from the POV of a very strong human character who has some peculiarity she's using to make her way in a tough world.
<AnnMarie> Sounds great to me
<Bonnee> I've read both and loved both. I'll even try to find the time to do something with you.
<AnnMarie> Although doing both at the same time is tempting <evil grin>
<Bonnee> Go for it if you really want. And I do apologize, but I really do have to get going.
<JL> One reason the Hamilton novels go over so well is the inherent CONFLICT in presenting a STRONG female character who's hard-boiled and getting harder and becoming less and less happy with herself and what her lifestyle is doing to her sensibilities. She has internal conflict, but NEVER LETS IT SHOW.
<AnnMarie> Thanks for coming Bonne, you've been a great help
<JL> Gang, I think we had a good class on POV. Are there any other points to make? Oh, length of the exercise piece you should be doing -- would you say 1500 words or less?
<MargareTZ> POV could go six hours!
<AnnMarie> Yes, keep it tight
<MargareTZ> definitely less!
* AnnMarie has a tendency to write on for way too long if allowed
<JL> The objective is to do 1500 words from FIRST PERSON POV without drifting away. Note that the only thing you do NOT use POV for is INFORMATION FEED. You use it for emotional control, for plot-movement, for .... what was the 3rd thing we discussed?
<MargareTZ> distance
<Jean> Information feed is a dilly in 1st person.
<JL> "distance" is the emotional control we discussed.
<AnnMarie> 'specially without doing an "As you know Bob"
<Jean> Look at how klutzily even Heinlein handles information feed in 1st.
<JL> Yes, in first person your reader knows ONLY what the lead character knows consciously.
<AnnMarie> If you want an example of masterful 1st, John Varley does it better than anyone else I've read. What I've done for feed in 1st, is simply set up a scene to show the problem.
<N`omi> yes, my library has "Guilty Pleasures"!
<AnnMarie> If I need to show how an engine works ... have the engine break and the character have to fix it
<Jean> That's why 1st is more popular for short stories than novels.
<AnnMarie> It's a blast for comedy
<Jean> You can't break a country in order to tell its history. And in a novel you often have to give history.
<AnnMarie> But if that history doesn't affect the story, then it isn't really applicable to the conflict
<Jean> In SF it is.
<MargareTZ> thus the Galactic Encyclopedia
<AnnMarie> Yup, <snorting>
<Jean> That is where Heinlein so often ends up having his lead character pontificate. While the action stops dead.
<AnnMarie> That and Heinlein liked to pontificate
<MargareTZ> didn't he ever!
<Jean> Yup--he wrote lots and lots of Maurice Yu stories, too!
<Jocelyn> Most of his stuff was social commentary anyway.
<AnnMarie> Actually a lot of stuff can be slid by with modern style SF ... loose edges make many modern readers happy. Don't look at me when you say that, Jocelyn. <grin>
<Jocelyn> Wasn't!
<JL> OK, the 3 things you CAN use POV for (and we'll expect to see in this exercise) are
<JL> POV as plot-carrying device, POV as a characterization tool, POV as an emotion-regulating device --
<Jean> Anyway, have fun trying to do a successful 1st person piece. It's lots harder than you may think.
<JL> The other point of this exercise is to get your head around into thinking like an EDITOR.
<AnnMarie> Can't be ... I've done it ... it's brutally difficult
<MargareTZ> it is the 'successful' part that is hard
<JL> Keep thinking about how this will LOOK to someone in Bonnee's position -- who has so little time to find the ONE item in that slush pile that will be a best seller and pay the rent.
<N`omi> while still being a writer??
<AnnMarie> Exactly N'omi
<JL> Yes, editors are writers, and writers are editors -- it's really one profession and two sides of the same coin. You first draft -- and you're a writer.
<JL> then you edit your stuff -- and you're an editor. Then you send it back to yourself for rewrite, and you're a writer again.
<N`omi> thanks JL, that makes more sense to me!
<AnnMarie> You write aimed for the editing style of the market you're headed towards
<AnnMarie> epub romance is wildly different from EOS SF
<JL> Yes, AnnMarie -- exactly. You study your market, study your editor, analyze and ANALYZE -- and then let it soak into your subconscious so you've forgotten it all, and you can CREATE with what you've learned.
<Jean> And just as you get one part of writing internalized, you realize that there's another you have to learn!
<JL> OK any more comments or questions?
<AnnMarie> Part of what makes writing fun is constantly learning
<JL> Yes, I agree with that -- one reason I decided to be a writer is that I know I can't stand a job that you can finish learning.
<Jean> I have to be a writer--I just have too many stories to tell! My problem these days is finding time to write!
<AnnMarie> I have my time in which I write, and defend it to the death
Session Close: Sun May 14 13:53:02 2000
