Session Start: Sun Apr 02 11:54:39 2000
<N`omi> Doesn't all SF start with the reader a bit floundering?
<JL> Yes, and this is not a primarily sf-oriented editor.
<MargareTZ> no, unless the reader never read any sf before.
<JL> Melissa Scott is one I do read and appreciate.
<AnnMarie> It sounds a bit like Russian S~G because it is also set in
Moscow
<JL> Melissa Scott is often a Guest of Honor at Darkover Grand
Council.
<MargareTZ> it is very helpful to see how a non-sf-reader reacts.
<JL> Note she wants "thought" -- that's disallowed by most action-oriented sf editors.
<tamarion> Too technical would scare some off who do not read s/f.
<JL> Yes, and that's why I used that style in some other books I couldn't sell because they're ostensibly sf but have a style geared more to the non-sf reader (or the adult, mature reader who wants more than teen-age action).
<N`omi> *I* am desperate to know more about Jeanine, primarily!!
<MargareTZ> I had trouble figuring out who was supposed to be the protag.
<JL> "too much thought between question and answer" is a PACING PROBLEM.
<N`omi> I thought it was Jeanine? IF he tracks her down, I'd say
<JL> One complaint here is not enough thought, the other is "thought" in the wrong PLACE. <JL> Together that makes a "STYLE" PROBLEM. PROLOG is a WHERE TO START THE STORY problem -- a CONFLICT problem possibly. Keep in mind I haven't read Ann Marie's chapter yet. I liked THE KINDRED!
<N`omi> At least that is what I thought at the end of the first chapter. that J was the main one..all others *could* be left...but would be shadows throughout the book???
<JL> NOTE Bonnee is now talking about INFORMATION FEED -- another topic we've covered, and touched on in the Workshop. Too detailed here, not enough detail there -- that's a STYLE problem. What's "right" is different for each genre.
The mark of the professional is the ability to shift style with genre, or editorial preference. To have control of style is the objective of beating yourself up to learn all this stuff consciously. Note also that having PROMISED that so clearly in the first chapter, the author MUST deliver on those promises at the END. And in between, must hew very, very close to that conflict-line
established, with no extraneous information at all. She's addressing the HUNG HERO test now. Moving or stagnant POV character.
<N`omi> Greg is too stupid to be much..antag's are never dumb.
<JL> What Bonnee is evaluating now is the matters pertaining to the allocated advertising budget and the way it will be published. Is this a blockbuster -- a trend-setter? Or is it "mid-list".
<N`omi> rephrase Gregory is too stupid to be much..antag's are never dumb. Blockbuster.
Not in Bonnee's estimation it's not. The VOICE is non-descript.
<tamarion> How do you fix the voice?
<JL> That shows the author has skill and potential. How do you change voice? A very great deal of study and practice. In this case, since it's RUSSIAN futuristic -- I'd use the same technique Heinlein used in MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS. That was his "breakout" book in many ways because of the 'VOICE' which was so different from his usual "non-descript" style.
<N`omi> ahh, so that would also need to be taken into account by the Editor? the fact this is a RUSSIAN futuristic?
<JL> right -- limited market for such things.
<tamarion> Their way of looking at things is different, and would confuse possibly any other audience for it, right?
<JL> Now, since the cold war is over, it's possible to publish such a book as all kinds of different things. How much can the publisher afford to risk on such a chancy thing?
<MargareTZ> but science fiction excels in presenting different world-views
<tamarion> has to be done though in a way that others can relate.
<N`omi> Would you choose to publish as is, etc?
<JL> Oh, keep in mind I haven't read the material at all. sf is a genre, yes -- well, you see my lifelong contention is that sf is NOT a genre, but publishing still hasn't agreed with me. Note now Bonnee is doing a part of ESSENCE OF STORY -- reading to analyze and learn. That is the single activity that is common to all the successful writers I've met -- dissecting some really popular thing to do likewise. Even Stephen King did that to get where he is. Well, yes, exactly -- by educating your
palate you come to learn a new level and form of enjoyment. The trick is not to lose the ability to enjoy reading from the pure-pleasure direction all at the same time. I still ADORE good fanzine writing. Even bad fanzine writing. I read Trekzines, and vampire 'zines -- even review them in my professional column.
<tamarion> why even bad?
<Jean> Sometimes PWP fan stories are fun.
<JL> It's the PAYLOAD you see that counts, even more than the form. But it's via the FORM that you control the reader's emotional reactions, and literally learn to PAINT in the colors of emotion.
<Jean> "Plot? What plot?"
<JL> Yes, exactly PWP is WONDERFUL stuff for a dark, cold evening by the fire. I learned a lot from editors doing stuff like that to my ms's.
<MargareTZ> is the 'she hissed..." clause even necessary?
<JL> depends on the STYLE the author is driving for -- it has to MATCH the surrounding verbiage in style. If it sticks out like a sore thumb, it has to be changed.
<N`omi> I think the hissed sets a clear statement
<JL> Keeping in mind I haven't read this piece! As a WRITING CLASS exercise here, (apart from this being an editing course) I would now ask the students to REWRITE the piece, and post all the rewrites for everyone to read and discuss, and compare to mine or an editor's.
<JL> That is how I learned the most -- when MZB and various editors did this with me, I learned. The item they're discussing now "she hissed" and sound effect tags -- is a STYLISTIC thing. Note that Bonnee is tiptoeing around the STYLE - because style is something an editor MUST NOT TOUCH -- but it's the meat and potatoes of a writing-course!
<Greg> JL - what do you think about using 'son of a bitch'...it is powerful and says alot, but would it turn off alot of people who may think the whole book will have that type of language?
<JL> The issue is whether it's a Russian colloquialism in that era.
<MargareTZ> um, or French (Jeanine is French)
<JL> And as for the vernacular -- it all depends on your market. For example, you don't see any of that in Sime~Gen at all because they were DOUBLEDAY books, and Doubleday
titles were sold on ANNUAL CONTRACT two per month to libraries, especially school libraries across the nation. In some states such language was banned from school libraries! So we conformed to that market -- not because of personal
preference. Still, with SF -- you have many more potent ways of expressing expletives.
<JL> copyeditor is either an out-sourced job, or in-house it's an entry-level position for someone who wants to become an editor.
<AnnMarie> So it -should- be "I'm done," he said. ?
<JL> right AnnMarie -- that's the correct punctuation for any dialogue and tag. Grammar school -- I learned that in 7th grade English!
<Greg> one thing that caught my eye...in the first para her wrists were held...in the 3rd para she flipped her hair back...and in the next para he broke his grip on her.
<Jean> You can toss your head and flip your hair back.
<JL> That's a head-motion flip, Greg, I'm sure.
<N`omi> I thought flipping her hair back was a neck thing
<MargareTZ> depends on hair length.
<JL> I've seen guys do it with a cowlick.
<Jean> Watch a long-haired male rock star sometime!
<JL> Remember SUNSET STRIP -- the tv series? The guy who parked cars out front? He combed his hair every opening of the show. And he'd flip it with a head-motion.
<N`omi> True, but a woman thang as we saw it, and Greg didn't. That's is how I meant the comment.
<Greg> But it did make me stop and think there was an error...and I don't think that should happen.
<AnnMarie> Good point Greg ... duly noted for next revision. <grin>
<JL> You're right Greg -- a little thing like that should be caught by a copyeditor. That is their JOB -- continuity. One thing I note stylistically is that this is much too heavy in
MODIFIERS -- adjectives and adverbs. Note what Bonnee is deleting. Few editors will work this hard on a Ms that has all this needed in chapter one.
<Greg> Why would black for the hair be considered unnecessary?
<JL> Greg - you have to CHOOSE modifiers -- you can't have so many. If this were my own text, I'd have cut even deeper.
Modifiers WEAKEN the impact of any text.
When you need HIGH-DRAMA you use NO MODIFIERS AT ALL.
<Greg> In other words...hair colour is not at all important here
<JL> If it's important, establish it in a TELL paragraph of it's own. If it's not that important, don't let it detract from the drama of the interaction.
HERE being the operative word, Greg, yes -- elsewhere it could be crucial -- like red hair on Darkover. What we just discussed (outside the modifyer problem) is INFORMATION FEED. Is this information to be fed HERE or LATER? Or if it's crucial to understanding THIS, then it must be fed EARLIER. What does the reader need to know? When do they need to know it? Is it just that you want them to know? Or is it really vital to understanding the story? Point in COMMERCIAL WRITING -- for a writing course. In order to make a living at genre fiction writing, you have to streamline your production of words. You have to not-waste time fixing things. You have to "do it right the first time" -- and you will make more sales if your submissions need less of this kind of editing work. It's the editor's time to suggest -- and your time to fix or dodge the suggestions. Time=$$$ You can't make a living if you waste TIME.
<JL> BTW I should when I get a chance to read this piece, find a way to fix what Bonnee is squirming about without adding a prolog. As a reader, I hate prologs and don't read them. But very possibly
AnnMarie will figure it out first.
<JL> Is your MS ready to post in toto?
<AnnMarie> It is complete ... or at least as complete as I could make it.
Session Close: Sun Apr 02 14:23:40 2000
