Session Start: Sun Apr 02 11:54:52 2000
First two questions posed by Patric Michael.  
<JL> 1. It was my understanding that written works posted on the internet would not even be considered for paper publishing. Is that still true, since I now see e-publishers talking about paper rights, etc.
<Bonnee> Actually, the only community that's always been strict about internet rights is the SF community. They feel, if it's on the Internet, you've already "published" it and can no longer claim first rights. So it depends on which genre you're working in. What they now have to do is split print rights from e-rights from POD rights, yadda, yadda. IOW, epublishing has totally changed the concept of "publishing": It's no longer a clear-cut definition now that there are so many mediums available. Does that help?
<JL> 2. Is it likely or even possible that a paper publisher would accept an unknown author if said author had already gained some popularity on the internet already?
<Bonnee> Yup, it's already been done. M.J. Rose with Lip Service. She self-published her book on the Internet and gained enough publicity that she got a contract.
<Jean> Lois Wickstrom and I bought her book.
<JL> Thank you -- that will go in our records. In fact, if anyone reminds me, it should go out in WorldCrafters-L.
<Bonnee> from Doubleday for their Book of the Month.
<Jean> Her book on how to promote, that is.
<Bonnee> Actually, no, that came later.
<Jean> We're trying to do the same thing with our children's book.
<Bonnee> Lip Service was her first and they picked up the rights on that one also.
<JL> The question was basically, since that has already happened -- was it a fluke or the beginning of a trend?
<Bonnee> Well, I've had nice long conversations with other print publishers.
<Jean> But note--they don't want OLD voices who got shoved out despite being good writers!
<Bonnee> I've always felt that epublishing would be a "clearing house" of sorts for print publishing. I don't see either one dying any time soon. But print publishers can "experiment" with new lines and new voices on the Internet before. Putting in the kind of monetary investment that's required with print. I think you'll see a whole new expansion in epublishing in the next 5 years.
<JL> And of course that's why we're doing this course online.
<Bonnee> I've already discussed this as a feasibility project with a few editors at print houses.
<JL> We need to train up a whole new crop of skilled professionals.
<Bonnee> Let's hope so :-)
<JL> To work then.
<Bonnee> Okay, is everyone ready?
<Bonnee> Basically, what I'd like to do is run right through Greg's form. 

Section I, Description 

- How's the spelling? I noticed two misspellings. Believe me, nothing to even comment. The only thing that did catch my attention was "smouldering" which is a Brit spelling. That could be deliberate or not. I'd simply check with the author.
- Clean Typing and Format? No problem there. Professional job. Nice and easy. Section I done.

Section II. 

- Is there a beginning, middle and end? Yes and no. Here's where it gets tricky. She dealt with the "here and now" beautifully, but I wondered if a prologue might not set up the world easier. That's usually a "copout" in that it defines something the author doesn't take time in her manuscript. But we're talking biowarfare. Mutations to the degree that we're on Earth, but it's not Earth anymore. Maybe a short intro of what happened and why it happened. It would introduce the characters. In a way to explain the kind of world they're forced to live in. But let me continue and we can come back to this (if someone reminds me <g>)
Is the setting appropriate? Yes, it works. I liked the detail of the alley and how she moved over the rooftops. Shows it's a world she knows (how humans don't look up). Nice detailing that expands that sense of "place".
- Is there suspense? This, again, goes back where an intro might have helped in letting the reader know "what" they're dealing with. Yes, the suspense is there. I did feel it, I just wasn't sure of all the implications surrounding the act of Gregory cutting Jeanine loose. I have a feeling it's far more dangerous than we might know.
- Does the suspense coincide with the conflict? In many ways, yes. We know Anatoly is going to search for Jeanine because she's a weapon that can't be let loose on her own. Through Gregory's stupidity and arrogance, Anatoly is going to be stuck serving the greater good.
- Is the plot, suspense and conflict connected? Yes, though the pieces were a bit disjointed, they were all leading in the same direction. Jeanine knows she needs a master. Gregory has cut her loose. Anatoly will have to pick up the pieces.
- Is foreshadowing used effectively? Yes and, in some instances, too much. There were several places I edited out lines of text because it was telling what would happen or introducing events the POV character couldn't possibly know. But this will show more effectively when I drop in some of my edited text (which I'll do when we're done here).
- Is POV usage appropriate to the genre? Yes. POV is used very well for the most part.

<Bonnee> I've got two files. One that's the original file with my edits worked in. And the second file is where I applied those edits. The last one show the final product. I figure it's easiest if you see the original, the marked-up text and then the final version. See how it all changes as the process moves.

- Do the characters jump off the page? To a degree. A bit more "thought" on their part might help fill in those missing pieces. This would negate the need for a prologue, but it depends how the author wants to handle it. With a prologue to explain the history a bit more, I think the current level of emotion would work fine.
- Are they people you want to know? Anatoly, yes. Jeanine is still a bit of a mystery. Not sure what drives her yet. But I've only had one chapter so far. Gregory's an ass. But that's okay...LOL!
- Do the characters talk with or at each other? Dialogue is good. A bit rough in places, but that can be smoothed out. A few times, too much thought between a question and a response, but that's what editors are for. There's a glaring one in the file that I took care of, so that will help show you what I mean.
- Do you care about them? Yeah, I'd like to read on and find out how Jeanine reacts when Anatoly tracks her down.

Plotting

Now, disclaimer! We've only seen one chapter, so we all have to take this with a grain of salt. We'll modify to be pertinent to a one-chapter discussion.
- Do you get to the end of the chapter and wonder what happened? No, it's all pretty clear what's coming up.
- Are there holes? Just the basic information which is why I suggested a prologue. Questions like what kinds of powers they have besides feeding on emotion (Do I read reminiscences of The Kindred series by Michele Sagara? <g>). Is the information given when needed or dumped when the author wants to reveal? If anything, this is the biggest problem in plotting. Foreshadowing contained info that told rather than showed. A bit of overwriting with unnecessary clauses in explanations. Too detailed at times. Not enough in others. But this is something that takes a LOT of practice and can be suggested in a rewrite.
- Is each step carefully planned? So far, so good. No real complaints on this part.
- Are there too many subplots or not enough? Not, so far. I think this story will be a straightforward tale. Which, considering the environment and society, will give a good balance. (Note: When introducing a totally alien world, best to keep the plot simple. You already have enough information to relay to the reader without making the plot too complex.)
- Is every loose end tied up? By the end of this chapter, yes, we know what's coming. Though it isn't resolved, we're not confused as to direction. 
- When you reach the end, do you feel like something has occurred? Yes. We've got a killer on the loose and a master who can bring her in but he's not thrilled with the task. Pretty straightforward.
- Is the main character moving or stagnant? Definite movement. Jeanine must either find a way to survive or find another master (one less onerous than Gregory). 

<MargareTZ> at the end of the first chapter I was pretty sure Jeanine was the protag.
<Bonnee> Me, too, Margaret. I got a feeling it's both Jeanine and Anatoly. Possible romance between the killer and her "keeper". But I'm also a hopeful optimist.
<Greg> But, at the end of the first chapter, should the reader not know for sure who the protag is?
<Bonnee> If you've only got one protagonist, you should have that set up. Very clear-cut. A romance tends to have both the hero and the heroine, so it's not quite as clear. But the signs should be there and that's what I'm hoping. Right now, Jeanine is the definite protagonist. It's simply a matter of whether Anatoly is going to be a "good thing" or a "bad thing".

Pacing

- Does the action build or does it waiver? This baby is building. We're not sure where it'll end up, but we've got some kind of "showdown" coming.
- Are there info dumps? Not really. A little more info would have been nice. Again, this is why I suggested a possible prologue. I just don't know yet whether a prologue would be best or a rewrite that would add the information needed.
- Does it stop dead with "sagging middle"? Well, not the chapter. But we haven't reached that stage in the book yet, either.

Voice

- Does the author have a distinctive voice? More non-descript. It's not intrusive. But I'm not sure it's well-defined either. It's not annoying. It hasn't intruded. And that says a LOT of good things.
- Do you get the sense of the kind of book? Western? Sf? Yes, this is definitely set on the Earth in the future after a destructive war of biological weapons that created mutations. No doubt about that.

Clarity

- Do you wonder whose story this is? Jeanine's. Possibly with the additional of Anatoly as a second main character, but he's not defined as that yet.
- Does it jump from character to character or is it consistent in whose story is being told? This is more of an action/adventure. We're following the plot. This isn't a story based in character where you'll follow one person as it's revealed. We're following the action. This is NOT a bad thing. It simply defines that it's more plot-oriented than character-oriented. The logical progression of scenes is following the plot. Depending on how the rest is written, this is fine.

<Bonnee> Does anyone disagree or have a different view on anything I've said?
<JL> So would you turn the page to read the next chapter? And if so, and you decided to buy it -- what would you publish it "as"?
<MargareTZ> Still mulling the 'plot-oriented'
<Bonnee> Yes, I'd read more, JL. Would I publish "as is"? No, not once you've seen what I did. Margaret... question regarding plot-oriented? While you're thinking on that, let me define a few things.
<MargareTZ> Trying to find clues as to whether author wanted it plot-oriented.
<Bonnee> Good point, Margaret. That will be further defined as we continue to read. If she follows the action (Showing the characters in a scene that follows the plot line rather than a character's train of thought) then you've got a plot-oriented story. IOW, each scene was built as a device to move plot. Now, yes, she'll also define and ":round out" her characters as they move through these scenes, but character-defined books follow a character and their patterns, moving to the plot, moving over to a secondary plot line, moving back to the plot, etc. In character-oriented, you don't follow a straight line along the plot itself.
<MargareTZ> Harder to write AND edit, I assume.
<Bonnee> It's a very small difference, but one I tend to recognize because character-oriented is used very rarely and it's one of my favorites. They're each unique and each have their own strengths and weaknesses.
<Jean> That's an interesting statement that character-oriented doesn't follow the plot line.
<JL> The secret of good character-oriented novels is a strong karmic-plotline. (there has to be poetic justice).
<Jean> I think of myself as writing character-oriented books, but they always follow the plot line.
<Bonnee> I'm trying to think of a popular novelist who writes character-oriented.
<Jean> I've written a few with flashbacks, but editors generally hate those.
<JL> "Asher Lev" is the title -- I can't recall the author right now.
<Jean> Except that I got away with MAJOR flashbacks (half the book, every other chapter) in SURVIVORS, of all things.
<Bonnee> Anyone here read Laurell Hamilton
<N`omi> Chaim Potek
<JL> Chaim Potek -- right.
<Jean> A Pocket Books Trek novel, where you'd think you could NEVER do such a thing.
<Bonnee> Anita Blake series?
<JL> I studied character-driven novels from his.
<Bonnee> Flashbacks are a strange animal <g>
<MargareTZ> Chaim Potek I've read.
<JL> That's where I learned how necessary the invisible because-line is, and how it must be invisible, but it still supports the whole book. I LOVE the Anita Blakes.
<Bonnee> Laurell writes character-oriented books.
<Jean> I've read all the Blake books--thought they were plot-driven the way mine are.
<Bonnee> Anita has a mystery to be solved, but the scenes don't follow a natural progression to the plot of the mystery.
<Jean> Great characters, but a clear because-line.
<Bonnee> She gets side-tracked into other things because of her personal "code of honor".
<Jean> I think of those things as part of the plot.
<Bonnee> Definitely people-oriented, but her plotting is strong enough to support the whole.
<JL> Laurell has mastered the trick of the COMPLICATION. And she never confuses the plot with the plot-complication.
<Bonnee> Well, the going joke with her is that someone once told her she couldn't write gore or sex. So she was determined to prove them wrong. I can definitely say she writes the best gore and sex around. Okay... before we lose the train of thought here.
<JL> Sharon Green likewise launched a whole career on a dare and a bet that she COULDN'T write "John Norman Gore" style for women, and Sharon Green won. Mainstream novels generally follow character more than plot. Genre novels (even romance) follow plot more than character. In romance though, the plot that's followed is the development of the relationship. Each chapter changes the nature or stage of the RELATIONSHIP between the principle characters. Above, Bonnee mentioned that in a romance there are usually TWO protags. What she didn't get around to pointing out is that each protag is living through a version of the same STORY. That the two lives are tied together by some thematic thread.
<Bonnee> Romance is unique in that you've got two characters rather than one. That's what makes it harder to write (Not that ANY genre is easy). You've got parallel planes happening simultaneously and that's hard to do. Course, that's what drew me to the genre. It's got an inherent complication. And all that comes from character, not plot. Before I go too far, though, let me show you some excerpts from the files I have.
<JL> In the WORKSHOP I've posted a series of essays on plot-character integration -- where you study the skills for making the plot and the character into the warp and woof of the story material.
<Bonnee> Most writers don't realize that reading shouldn't be a pleasure. It's work. Studying different techniques with different authors. I spent an entire summer studying Nora Roberts and what made her such a best-seller. I actually dreaded the thought of picking up another book, but it was a learning experience (I read about 40 of her books back-to-back). Anyway....I could go on for another hour, but let me get those excerpts up.

Okay, I'm going to start with the first paragraph....

Here's the version we read:

"If you don't let me go. I'm going to kill you, you sadistic son of a bitch." She hissed between clenched teeth. Gregory had her wrists in his vice like grip. Not that she couldn't have broken his hold if she tried, but Jeanine didn't want to waste the energy. Jeanine had enough of Gregory's attitude and just wanted to alone for an evening.

Here's the version with my little notations embedded:

"If you don't let me go. I'm going to kill you, you sadistic son of a bitch." She hissed between clenched teeth. Gregory had her wrists in his vice like grip. Not that she couldn't have broken his hold if she tried, but Jeanine didn't want to waste the energy. <Jeanine had*SHE'D> had enough of <Gregory's*HIS> attitude and <just*DELETE> wanted to <BE LEFT> alone for <an*ONE> evening.

And here's the final version, assuming my edits were accepted:

"If you don't let me go. I'm going to kill you, you sadistic son of a bitch." She hissed between clenched teeth. Gregory had her wrists in his vice like grip. Not that she couldn't have broken his hold if she tried, but Jeanine didn't want to waste the energy. She'd had enough of his attitude and wanted to be left alone for one evening.

This one is pretty straightforward in what's happening.
<Jean> "If you don't let me go I'm going to kill you, you sadistic son of a bitch," she hissed between clenched teeth. The mispunctuation sets my teeth on edge.
<Bonnee> Some of them later get complicated (long sentences with additions and deletions), which is why I put together a "final" version
<Jean> Would you really leave, it, Bonnee?
<Bonnee> Oops.. forgot the other comma.
<Jean> really
<Bonnee> There were a few I found on the final version that I'd missed. But I read everything twice... and, believe me, still manage to miss things. Okay, Jean, what would you do?
<Jean> What I said above.
<Bonnee> How would you change the sentence? Sorry, I had to look back. No, separate sentences. To be honest, I have trouble with sound effects being used as a dialogue tag. 
<Jean> "If you don't...bitch," she hissed between clenched teeth.
<Bonnee> It can actually be done either way.
<Jean> Ann Marie CONSISTENTLY does this.
<Bonnee> Yes, she can hiss the words, but she can also hiss in frustration after speaking. Both are acceptable. I prefer sound effects as a separate thing.
<Jean> Most of the time it's not acceptable, though. I've read a great deal of Ann Marie's work, and she is consistent in this construction.
<MargareTZ> Is it even needed?
<Bonnee> Ah.... but this is also where we have to be careful as editors. As an editor, yes, we want proper grammar, but grammar is more than simple sentence construction. Grammar is a part of voice and style.
<Jean> "I'm hungry." He said. Where it ought to be, "I'm hungry," he said.
<Bonnee> That would be corrected, and yes, I did correct many of those. But hissing is not necessarily a vocal inflection. It can be a separate sound from words.
<Jean> If it were not the author's habit, I would KNOW not to change this particular one.
<MargareTZ> Shouldn't it be a new paragraph in that case?
<Jean> This is a reason for a writer to use consistently correct grammar.
<Bonnee> Yes and no.
<Jean> Then when she deliberately does something, the editor knows she knows what she is doing.
<Bonnee> Since a writer only has words and sentence structure to communicate with a reader, they have very few tools handy. As an editor, it's our job to be an un-intrusive as possible.
<Jean> Mechanics is a writer's tool.
<Bonnee> Correct what's obviously wrong, but leave what's acceptable.
<Jean> Most writers today leave it out of the tool box.
<Bonnee> Yes, but wait... have you ever heard the saying that an editor can edit a writer's voice right out of the piece?
<Jean> They are thus totally dependent on copyeditors, losing control over their own style. Exactly!
<Bonnee> There are writers who refuse to work with critique groups because they can "grammar" them to death.
<Jean> The writer who doesn't control, loses control.
<Bonnee> If all books were written in absolute proper grammar, every book would sound the same.
<Jean> Grammar is the LAST thing to attack.
<Bonnee> The only choices a writer would have left to her is word choice.
<Jean> Aarrgh! Jacqueline, do you remember the FCh problem? The copyeditor corrected Rimon and Kadi's grammar! They were two teenaged kids.
<Bonnee> I know. English teachers hate to hear this, but punctuation is as much a part of voice as word choice.
<Jean> I had carefully given them teenage language, and the copyeditor turned them into college professors.
<JL> Oh, yes I remember the tussle over FIRST CHANNEL.
<Bonnee> And I hate those copyeditors who make 6-year-olds sound like middle-aged women.
<Jean> I AM a college professor--they were not supposed to sound like me, and I had made them NOT sound like me.
<Bonnee> Yup, so this is why I say you've got to be careful. Some punctuation is a personal thing... either to the writer or the editor. It's okay to change something as long as you're absolutely sure you're not messing with their style.
<JL> I thought she did a wonderful job on the dialect -- and the writing in narrator's voice made it clear it wasn't an ERROR on our part, but rather a part of the characterization. Which means editors must take WRITING COURSES in order to learn to identify what is style and what is not.
<Jean> And I'm saying if I had NOT made a distinction, if everyone in the book had sounded like teenagers, then the copyeditor could have claimed she was right.
<Bonnee> Well, remember most copyeditors are kids straight out of college without the experience to back their training.
<Jean> But since I had carefully controlled the voices of the characters, she lost her case with the editor.
<JL> That's because we had great editors -- like Bonnee.
<Bonnee> LOL! I'm not sure about that... <g>
<Jean> If I had not known what I was talking about concerning mechanics, I would have been the one with no case.
<Bonnee> Let me give you another example from the files.

<Bonnee> Okay, third paragraph.

Jeanine flushed, not wanting to acknowledge the hit but damned to it by her pale skin. Dust motes danced in the thin shaft of late golden light coming through the lone scratched and stained window. "It isn't a pack. At least I have time to myself." she flipped her black hair out of her eyes irritably. Somehow Gregory had managed to talk her into letting it grow out. Although at this point Jeanine would have almost welcomed some company, at least then she would have someone to talk with. Trying to talk with Gregory was about as enjoyable as talking with a hamir.

Okay, here's the marked-up version

See complete marked-up version.

Jeanine flushed, <not wanting*REFUSING> to acknowledge the hit but damned <to it*DELETE> by her pale skin. Dust motes danced in the thin shaft of <late*DELETE> golden light coming through the lone scratched <and stained*DELETE> window. "It isn't a pack. At least I have time to myself." <she*CAPITAL> flipped her <black*UNNEC> hair out of her eyes irritably. Somehow <Gregory had*HE'D> managed to talk her into letting it grow out. Although at this point<,> Jeanine would have <almost*DELETE-QUALIFIER> welcomed <some*DELETE-QUALIFIER> company, at least then <she would*SHE'D> have someone to talk with. Trying to talk with Gregory was <about*DELETE-QUALIFIER> as enjoyable as talking with a hamir.

<Jean> Now THAT'S a good edit!
<Bonnee> Okay, so given those, this is how the final would read.

Jeanine flushed, refusing to acknowledge the hit but damned by her pale skin. Dust motes danced in the thin shaft of golden light coming through the lone scratched window. "It isn't a pack. At least I have time to myself." She flipped her hair out of her eyes irritably. Somehow he'd managed to talk her into letting it grow out. Although at this point, Jeanine would have welcomed company, at least then she'd have someone to talk with. Trying to talk with Gregory was as enjoyable as talking with a hamir.

See complete chapter with all Bonnee's edits accepted.

<Bonnee> A note about some of my shorthand. DELETE later is just dropped to DEL
<Jean> The only thing I might do is start a new parag w/"She flipped her hair," and then continue that parag instead of breaking.
<Bonnee> PARA obviously means new paragraph. I think most of it is pretty self-explanatory. Most people tend to believe that any time you have dialogue, it should either end or begin a paragraph, but it doesn't have to work that way. I look at a paragraph as a thought. A complete thought from beginning to end.
<Jean> I learned a long time ago to delete unnecessary qualifiers before letting an editor see my work.
<Bonnee> Qualifiers.... the bane of my existence <g>
<Jean> A thought about hair--that is why I would move that sentence.
<Bonnee> Overused by most writers, so I expect it. The hair was an action to emphasize her words. Not separate, but a beat to bring the point home. That's why I didn't separate it off. And the thought followed the action. Still the same train of thought.
<Jean> OK--that's just a style thing. Overall, that's a great edit.
<Bonnee> Poor Ann Marie is going to have a heart attack when she sees the whole thing.... BUT all I did was tighten the action.
<Jean> Exactly!
<Bonnee> Delete some repeats (or what I call "echoes"). Dump some clauses that really weren't necessary. 
<JL> Bonnee's edits are exactly what I got when I started -- from Marion Zimmer Bradley, from several professional editors, and from other writers who taught me.
<Jean> Me, too.
<JL> Bonnee really knows her stuff!!! I'm even more impressed than I was.
<Bonnee> Uh oh.... pretty auspicious company there <g>
<JL> Pat LoBrutto, Sharon Jarvis -- two of the editors involved.
<Jean> Right--same editors for me.
<Bonnee> Believe me, when I first started writing, I didn't know a clause from a dangling participle.
<JL> Two of the most respected names in Manhattan -- and Bonnee stands right beside them with exactly the same techniques.
<Jean> I learned to do it myself, and later editors didn't do much editing.
<Bonnee> I was taught by some really good critique partners and I just extended and expanded that knowledge. A little secret is I really love to take a good work and make it great. That's the ultimate job of an editor.
<Jean> But that kind of editing is not good use of your time, Bonnee. You should be finding plot holes, off-characterization, etc.
<Bonnee> No, that's why I normally just plug the edits in and hand back a "final" version to the author.
<Jean> You should not have to do that removal of qualifiers.
<Bonnee> I look for the overall things in my initial read. Like I said, with this book, a strong prologue would set the world. Then we can dive into the action. I work with the overall picture first. Only after we've gone to contract do I do this part of the editing process. But first I need a viable book.
<Jean> We certainly agree there!
<Bonnee> So, it's a total package. And, believe me, not many manuscripts get this part of the job. We only publish between 5-10% of the manuscripts submitted.
<Jean> Understood.
<MargareTZ> that is higher than print stats though, isn't it?
<Bonnee> Yes, but then we don't get the volume of submissions they do. Harlequin gets 3,000 submissions a month. I wouldn't even have time to read cover letters if I had that volume. But that's also why Dreams Unlimited doesn't have all that many books on our shelf. Every book that goes on our site goes through my desk first. It's a personal service. Not just for our authors, but our customers.
<Jean> As it ought to. Of course.
<Bonnee> Exactly!
<Jean> And every author is too close to her own work to see everything.
<Bonnee> As I said, sometimes I miss things also.
<Jean> But the author should be more alert than most are.
<Bonnee> But one of the greatest thrills for me is that we have many customers who've bought every book we've published.
<Jean> With a good author and a good editor, you should end up with a good book.
<Bonnee> I also have several top-notch reviewers who'll review anything I send because (their words, not mine) we have the best books out there. We always hope so, Jean.
<Jean> And that reputation is valuable!
<Bonnee> Exactly! And that's why every book will continue to get the personal treatment as long as I can stay awake.
<JL> We're hoping this course and others like it will eventually produce the staff of editors needed for operations like yours to grow. 
<Bonnee> I'd rather put our one or two top-shelf books per month than toss out two dozen "as is" simply for quantity. I'm hoping so, too, JL.
<JL> And we're hoping we'll send you writers who don't need so many hours of editing.
<Jean> If you stress quantity over quality, you will lose your audience.
<Bonnee> I'd appreciate that.
<MargareTZ> Quality is going to be what keeps e-publishing viable.
<JL> The problem is that readers can read faster than writers can write or editors can edit.
<Bonnee> Yes, both statements are true. I'm bringing along some editors who are learning what I want and need. So I can spend more time screening potential "buys".
<Jean> Well, frustrated readers turn into writers!
<Bonnee> LOL! Isn't that how we all started? <G>
<Jean> Both Jacqueline and I write what we want to read and can't find elsewhere.
<Bonnee> Course, I can take it one step further.... a frustrated writer became a publisher <g>
<JL> And we want to see you succeed at that.
<Bonnee> Because no one was publishing the books I wanted to write and I want to read. 
<MargareTZ> but in a rather narrow segment.
<Jean> Two frustrated writers are building simegen.com.
<Bonnee> Yes, but a very dedicated segment, Margaret <g>
<MargareTZ> true
<Bonnee> And we're expanding. I've got some contemporary and historical romances that simply don't fit the standard guidelines.
<Jean> We are niche writers, BUT there are thousands of people in that niche IFF we can reach them.
<Bonnee> Exactly! I figure for every writer, there's at least 500 readers who are actively seeking that exact kind of story. If not more, but I tend to be conservative in my estimations <g>. I didn't think Bill Gates would jump on the bandwagon for another 3 years.
<JL> You need about 45,000 readers to stay minimally viable in print -- maybe it's more like 65,000 these days.
<Bonnee> Depending on the genre.... 40,000 for niche genres like SF.
<Jean> It's more like 100,000 for a paperback today.
<JL> It's the price of paper that's the problem. 
<Bonnee> Romance, you need a minimum of 65,000-70,000 to be viable
<Jean> No--sf has gone the way of the rest. Big Name Writers are being told to go away. Their last book sold only 75,000 copies--not enough.
<Bonnee> OTOH, that's how we're getting Parke Godwin on our site
<Jean> Right!
<Bonnee> Production costs will kill print publishing.

<JL> I think we're about done for today. Let's discuss our next class meeting.
<Bonnee> Next lesson! Chapter two!
<JL> When does this class want to meet? Bonnee -- give us a BIG piece of homework.
<Bonnee> Okay, let's do this.....If Ann Marie has the book completed.....Let's get the whole thing and simply read for plot problems, continuity, etc. The BIG picture! We can break things down from there. Think you can read it all in two weeks? We'll use Greg's form again to address the entire book. Just read for concept, plot, characterization. The big picture. We won't push her regarding the small stuff. Simply ignore qualifiers, etc.
<Jean> OK--this time I will actually try to do the reading if life doesn't gang up on me again!
<Bonnee> I've got two contests to finish in that time and 3 books to edit <g>
<JL> They want to take 2 weeks to read and study it, and meet again on April what, April 22?
<Bonnee> April 23rd.... We can do Sunday that week.
<JL> Is the whole thing ready for posting?
<Jean> That's three weeks.
<Bonnee> Give you two weeks to read and analyze. Fill out Greg's form and then we can get together and chat about what we found. Ann Marie, do you have the book completed? Are you willing to do this? I don't want to pressure you in front of a whole class.
<Jean> This is the 2nd. The 23rd is 21 days from today.
<Bonnee> No, I could have met on Saturday if you need it.
<JL> If we allow 3 weeks, I'm pretty sure we can get this done.
<Bonnee> If she doesn't have the whole thing done, let me know. I do have something I could offer up.
<JL> But keep in mind I won't be here from the 16th or so on into May 1.
<Bonnee> Sunday, April 23rd. That's three weeks from today, but lots of time to read a whole ms.
<Jean> OK--as long as everyone is thinking the same time.
<JL> OK, class will continue on Sunday April 23rd, with a big homework assignment in the interim.
<Jean> The 23rd is Easter.
<Bonnee> Is that a problem?
<JL> Likewise, you should all be reading the TEXTBOOK that Bonnee has recommended. Oh, is it Easter?
<Bonnee> Not me. <g> Yes, the textbook will show you what to look for (I haven't referred to it much).  But it's my handbook when dealing with submitters.
<JL> And you should read every single book you read with ALL these guidelines in mind.
<JL> Ann Marie is the ms ready to post?
<AnnMarie> It is all up there.
<Bonnee> Fantastic! Then we've got a plan!
<JL> OK, Ann Marie says the whole thing is in the part that I posted. Then we're set for this homework interval.
<Bonnee> We'll read the whole thing and meet again on 4/23 at 3PM Daylight Savings to discuss how it all works together.
<JL> Read, study, evaluate via Greg's form -- and read the textbook for further clues. Use all that on a number of published novels, too. Bonnee -- can you recommend a novel on your site  that would be good for practice?
<Bonnee> Absolutely! Sherrilyn Kenyon's Born of Fire.
<JL> Oh, Kenyon is TERRIFIC but I haven't read that one.
<Bonnee> I adore her book. Tight. Concise. Complete characters as well as complex plot.
<AnnMarie> I would have guessed Rainbow Bridge
<JL> Is Born of Fire ready for download?
<N`omi> Is it available onsite to be studied?
<Bonnee> I adore Karen's book, but Born of Fire is my personal favorite.  We have PDF, RTF and RocketEdition,


Session Close: Sun Apr 02 14:23:42 2000