Logged and subsequently prepared for posting by Karen Litman

<Karen> is Karen Litman. 
<jeff> is Jeff Hall, Webmaster's Department,
<JL> is Jacqueline Lichtenberg,
<Jean> is Jean Lorrah,
<Bonnee> is the course instructor, Bonniee Pierson,
<Silke> is Silke Juppenlatz:

* Logging #talk to '#talk.log'

<Bonnee> Well, I'll be glad to teach you how to edit, Jeff and Karen <g>

<JL> What I think we should do is a discussion of editing -- so we'll have a log to post.

<Bonnee> I can do that.

<Karen> I told you I've done fan editing, not professional.

<jeff> Oh I don't know about that Bonnie, I am more of the techie. I just love reading the stories not critiquing them :)

<Bonnee> Yup. But editing is really editing.

<Karen> JL can tell you a lot of what I've done all these years.

<Bonnee> If you're a reader, you've already got an idea of editing. After all, you have authors you like and those you dislike

<Bonnee> That's a personal form of editing

<jeff> True, never really thought of it like that.

<Bonnee> You're already filtering out what you don't like or what doesn't work _for you_

<Bonnee> Remember, grammar is objective. Easy to learn from a book.

<Bonnee> Editing for content is personal and there's no way you'll ever get away from that

<jeff> But I have a very narrow band of books I like. Editing is looking at all kinds of books I probably wouldn't like to read, How do you do that?

<Bonnee> That's the hard part. Separating personal likes from knowing your market

<Bonnee> You have to know what will sell

<Bonnee> You learn that from doing a LOT of reading what's on the shelves

<Bonnee> The separation is what makes an editor a professional

<jeff> That's the key. I personally would gag on romance novels yet there is a strong market for those types of books

<Bonnee> Approximately 49% of all paperbacks sold worldwide in any month are romances

<Bonnee> That's marketing and knowing they sell

<jeff> Nothing meant folks just personal opening

<Bonnee> LOL!

<JL> It's the same for reviewing. You have to be able to spot books you don't like that others will and steer those who will like that book to it, and those who WON'T like it away from it, so they'll trust your judgement in the future.

<Bonnee> Exactly!

<Bonnee> A reviewer's audience is the people who read the reviews and will buy the book based on your opinion

<Bonnee> An editor's job is "purchasing" or contracting books that the publishiing house's audience will buy

<jeff> Do the really buy based on your review or do they buy from the author?

<Bonnee> Yes, Jeff. They will. I started the Compuserve Romance Reviews about 5 years ago

<jeff> I never look (nor know) who reviewed the book I want to get.

<Bonnee> I had people who swore they'd only buy the books I recommended

<JL> http://www.simegen.com/reviews/   -- take a look at our new top page for that. And then don't click on ROMANCE, but go to http://www.simegen.com/reviews/romance/   instead and see the new design for the romance reviews section that's under heavy construction right now.

<Karen> Well, of the 3 Sime~Gen fanzines, each had a different editor, a different focus, and some had different readers who only read one of the three. I wonder what that implied.

<Bonnee> In fact, I have authors who _still_ send me books to review because they like the way I view their books

<Bonnee> I saw things in their books that other reviewers didn't.

<Bonnee> Course, this helped me with the confidence that I could be an editor

<jeff> I see the different one sentence reviews at the back of the books, is that what you do?

<Bonnee> I used to, yes.

<Bonnee> I don't review anymore, though. Have enough reading to cover me for the next year or so. <g>

<jeff> So how does a possible book buyer know you have reviewed a certain book?

<Bonnee> Our reviews carried our names. Not all review services do, but Compuserve does.

<Bonnee> I had a few quotes for Linda Howard books.

<jeff> So all the books you review are on Compuserve correct?

<Bonnee> If they're still there, yes.

<Bonnee> I contacted the various publishers and offered them reviews. Some houses started sending books, others didn't.

<Karen> Curiosity has me...what did you want to teach in this course?

<jeff> What do you look for when reviewing a book?

<Bonnee> I still get review copies from Avon, Berkeley

<Bonnee> An overall good read. Believable characters and plotlines.

* Karen nods. "Difficult skill to hone."

<Bonnee> To be honest, reviewing a book is the same thing as reading a book as a potential contract as a publisher

<Bonnee> The only difference is, as a reviewer, I got books that had already gone to contract and had <koff> supposedly been edited.

<jeff> Suggestion, you might consider teaching what a reviewer looks for in a good story since some of these people are looking to publish their work.

<Bonnee> As an editor, I get to see the "raw" product. It's the same, just more involved in editing.

<Bonnee> I could do that. That's a good idea. <grin>

* Karen smiles. "I've helped our short story writers become better with subsequent drafts."

<Bonnee> It's not as detailed as what an editor looks for, but the same basic concepts are identical.

<jeff> This way, they would know what would and wouldn't sell using your course as a guide.

<Karen> Good point, Jeff.

<jeff> And therefore, what would the general public like to see.

<Bonnee> That might be a good idea. A much shorter and less intensive course, also. <Grin>

<jeff> Maybe a good starter, you can teach a more advanced version later.

<Bonnee> Hmm.... but I'm not sure a reviewer influences public opinion.

<jeff> That way, many people might not be so intimidated. Oh you don't, reviewing only get the public what they are looking for if I understand correctly

<Bonnee> It's more a case of a reader finds a reviewer whose opinion matches their own and so follows

<JL> We are planning a REVIEWING course -- we need good reviewers for the reviews/ section. I'm looking for a science fiction/fantasy reviewer to do a column to stand beside mine and in contrast to it. We're looking for a Mystery genre reviewer.

<Karen> I read the reviews on the book jacket. Whether I agree with them is something else again.

<Bonnee> that reviewer and what s/he has to say about various books.

<Bonnee> I know reviewers who I disagree with entirely. Whatever they give high marks to, I know not to buy. <grin> Others, I trust their opinion implicitly

<JL> I have reviewers I read and buy every book they HATE. If you're a GOOD reviewer, you can be consistent like that.

<Bonnee> Exactly!

<jeff> Or see every movie they "thumbs down" :)

<JL> Yes, Jeff - I also see the movies "they" hate.

<Bonnee> We also cultivate the same kind of connections online and in our personal lives

<Bonnee> Friends who recommend books and we run to the store... others, we create a "do NOT BUY" list <grin> And every single bit of it is based on personal opinion <grin>

<Bonnee> Making sense? <grin>

<JL> Enjoying a GOOD READ is a very, very personal and ideosyncratic thing.

<Bonnee> So, it's all a matter of degree

* Karen smiles. "Maybe that's why you and I get along well most of the time, Jacqueline. We think a little oddly."

<Karen> Makes sense to me.

<jeff> So I like JL's/Jean's books. You review it and I disagree and get the book anyway. Are you say reviewing is personal?

<Bonnee> Yup. Reviewing is absolutely personl.

<JL> more than a little oddly, Karen.

<Bonnee> It's a matter of finding either someone who you always agree with or someone who's consistently opposite of what you like

* Karen is laughing at Jacqueline.

<jeff> Sorry for asking but what do you need reviewers for if it is personal and how can you possibly like and suggest something I would enjoy?

<JL> A professional editor or reviewer can't base everything on their own personal opinion -- and neither can a professional WRITER.

<JL> There has to be an external yardstick by which to measure the product.

<JL> But there's no way (nor should there be) to expunge the personal. Reading is a personal experience.

<Bonnee> Then you watch their column to make that decision of where to spend your money for books

<Bonnee> Trial and error for finding the right reviewer.

<Bonnee> Well, an editor's job is to be able to look beyond the personal as well as understand how much the personal factors into a decision

<jeff> Ok so the reviewer is the "second head" a writer uses to look at his/her work?

<Bonnee> You have to know your market. That's absolute. What sells and what doesn't.

<Bonnee> No, a reviewer is the last head to see a work. Remember, you've got to get past editors first. <g>

<Bonnee> Then, inside that market, you have to understand what makes a good book and what doesn';t.

<jeff> Oh ok, so the reviewer will see the version that will make it to the public

<Karen> The book is either in galleys or close to it I would think when a reviewer gets it. But I thought we were also talking about editing.

<Bonnee> In most cases, yes. The reviewer gets the final product.

<JL> Yes, and this editing course should not only turn out a fledgling editor or two, but also teach writers what they're up against when submitting a manuscript.

<Bonnee> Agreed.

<Bonnee> Now, the hardest job for an editor is seeing what the writer _wanted_ to say. The plot they _meant_ to write. And then being able to see if they pulled it off

<Karen> Gee, Jacqueline. How tough is the standard I set for my fanzine...... Haven't let you down there yet.

<jeff> So what if you don't like the manuscript, do you send it back or does the publisher just find another person that would give them a good review?

<JL> Yes, Bonnee -- YES!!!! That's what a writing teacher has to do too. Measure success by the writer's approach to the writer's goal! Step one is finding the writer's goal.

<Karen> Jeff...editing is not reviewing.....

<Bonnee> Right. First, you need to get an acceptable manuscript. I don't even consider reviews or what might be said until long after the contract is signed.

<JL> But the professional editor has then to judge the writer's goal by whether it fits into a particular line that has an open slot.

<Bonnee> Yes. And this is what's hard. I can't often tell someone what I want until I see it, but I know things that DO NOT sell. There are lines that simply can't be crossed.

<Karen> Care to give examples of what you said here....

<JL> OK, then for this course, we need a list of WHAT DOES NOT SELL NOW, for your syllabus.

<Karen> What will sell. What won't. What you can't do.

<Bonnee> Actually, easy. Rape is definitely out in any way, shape or form.

<JL> And an essay about how that list changes, and how to keep your personal list of what doesn't sell UPDATED so it's usable.

<Bonnee> Non-consensual might be a plot device, but if it's not handled right, it can kill a book in a paragraph.

<Bonnee> Underage. It's illegal. Flat-out. Won't sell, don't want it.

<Bonnee> Incest. Here's an interesting line because it exists in one of the books we sell, but it's referred to more and a sub-subplot rather than an overriding plot.

<Bonnee> Another line that should not be crossed unless it's a major plot point.

<Bonnee> And we won't even discuss bestiality. <g>

<JL> All those examples are lines in ROMANCE right? I've read some very HOT best selling action-thrillers that use those devices.

<Bonnee> But, when dealing with SF and Futuristics, this is something that crops up more often than I can to expand on. <g>

<JL> And there's the men's action genre.

<jeff> Ok I am a prude myself, those subjects even slightly touched on in any book I read tends to put me off.

<Karen> I would think it has to do with the specific genres.

<Bonnee> I fully admit my background is in romance which is why we focus heavily on it on our site.

<JL> Yes, I know -- I've had this argument with many unselling writers who bring me ms's. They won't believe these guidelines. Actually, it's the same attitude I run into with beginning Trek writers who want to sell a novel.

<Karen> Jeff... that should catagorize you as a gentleman, then.

<Bonnee> So, again, it's knowing your audience. Men are more accepting of non-consensual sex.

<Bonnee> Women see it as rape and the book hits the wall. <G>

<jeff> Whoa. Ok so I am the exception.

<Bonnee> So, a men's spy thriller can use a more forceful approach. I'm not saying ugly, backstreet gang bang here, Jeff <g>

<JL> No, Jeff, you aren't an exception -- you just don't read those other genres.  (Added next day: I meant you're a member of the majority among men -- who actively avoid demeaning women.  You're not exceptional, you're normal. JL)

<jeff> But I understand what you are saying, and yes, you're right.

<Bonnee> But a romance can't have force of anything (including him forcing his way into her apartment to talk to her or forcing his opinion on her).

<Bonnee> If your audience is mostly women, then you take a different approach.

<Bonnee> This is knowing your market. Who your readers are.

<jeff> My loves are horror's and sci fi not many authors even mention the word sex in those types of books

<Bonnee> Laurell Hamilton doesn't mention sex?!? Laughing Out Loud!

<JL> Bonnee -- my point was that each genre has these LINES -- and they're different for each genre, you have to learn them, you have to identify them, articulate them, and recognize them in any book you judge as reader, reviewer, or editor. What beginners need to learn is not what the content of the rules are, but where the rules came from, why they're there, why they work, how they work, and how to identify the point where the MARKET has changed the rules.

<Bonnee> Do you read Laurell's Anita Blake series?

<Karen> I would think a softer approach for Romance. Maybe that's why I'm not that fond of romance. There's too much in my make up that can't deal with it.

<jeff> Ok there are exeptions :)

<jeff> By the way, those are good books too!

<JL> Yes, I adore Anita Blake!!!! Turned my daughter onto it and we both rave over every book.

<Bonnee> Look in her acknowledgement pages. I'm there in "Burnt Offerings" and "The Killing Dance." <g>

<jeff> I didn't realize that. Will have to look again

<Bonnee> And her editor should be SHOT for the lack of editing "Obsidian Butterfly" <g>

<Bonnee> Anyway, you're right. A writer MUST know their genre. What works and what doesn't.

<jeff> Have not had the opportunity to read that one.

<JL> Well, yes, that book did need some work. It could have been tighter, and thus more effective.

<Bonnee> Another important point to know is _when_ to push those boundaries and how far you can go.

<jeff> Doesn't the author do that or does the reviewer "suggest"?

<JL> And that takes studying the market - to catch the winds of change before they actually turn up on the shelves.

<Bonnee> My brother is borrowing my copy, but I plan on editing my copy and sending it to Laurell's editor as a Christmas present. <g>

<Bonnee> Or creating that wind of change. The time is ripe in romance to expand it into all new directions.

<Karen> Jeff.... the editor suggests. The reviewer doesn't get to see anything until its close to being in print.

<Bonnee> The readers are hungry for more than a tight focus on the romance. They want deeper and more complex plots.

<jeff> So really the reviewer just reads the story?

<Bonnee> A reviewer does nothing more than read and then report their opinion of the final product.

<JL> Yes, of course Romance has to change. Just look at the success of BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER -- look at our parody contest on Buffy.

<Bonnee> Exactly! Hell, the success of Anita Blake and Le Femme Nikita.

<JL> Romance as a part of life -- not life as a part of romance?

<Karen> The editor helps shape the final product.

<Bonnee> Thank you! Yes!

<Bonnee> Unfortunately, the focus of a romance novel should not be the romance. The best books have the romance as a bonus. The plot has to carry the rest of the book .

<jeff> and the reviewer reads the final project and "tells all"

<JL> Well, every book I've written has a love story as the carrying story-arc -- and action as the complication.

<jeff> Your right JL you do. The one I read (only one I am sorry to say) did have a love story written all over it.....:)

<Bonnee> The reason we did FF&P.....Futuristic, Fantasy and Paranormal. Most romance houses place too much emphasis on the romance aspect. They don't give the writer enough room to properly build their world.

<Karen> I wonder how many of your fans know that, Jacqueline? I do, but how many don't.

<JL> I've read a terrific defining ROMANCE that was a Star Trek novel -- large one -- written in England. I learned how to carry a plot ON the relationship, not on the action. It was an eye-opener.

<Bonnee> Hmm.... how do I break this down? <g>

<Bonnee> Okay, we carry erotic romance. This has a very specific purpose.

<Bonnee> The only other successful erotic romance is "Black Lace."

<Bonnee> They _require_ 50% of every chapter to be sex.

<Bonnee> Real nice and I guess it can be considered hot, but that leaves 50% of the book for characterization, plot, setting, emotional development, etc. Not a lot of room if you start taking a book apart.

<Karen> No. You need all those "secondary" elements for a good read.

<Bonnee> So we don't have a set determination. As much sex as is necessary. Period.

<Bonnee> If it's 20% of the book, that's fine. It can still be erotic.

<Bonnee> Erotic doesn't have to take place with body parts thrusting into body parts.

<Bonnee> The people _shouldn't_ be interchangeable.

<Bonnee> For a book to be erotic to a woman, she needs to care about what's happening and why these

<JL> One of the most erotic books I've ever read was Marion Zimmer Bradley's WORLD WRECKERS - it has one sex scene -- all of Chapter 13 -- and it was that book that brought MZB and I together.

<Bonnee> characters got between the sheets.

* Karen remembers that book.

<Bonnee> Good! One for the "to be read" pile. <g>

<Bonnee> But, you see what I mean! That's what we're doing with FF&P romances.

<Bonnee> Yes, we like the happy ending, but we also want strong plots and concrete worlds.

<Bonnee> We're giving our authors the room and the chance to build those aspects, which can only strengthen the book in the long run.

<Bonnee> To be honest, the best advice I've ever heard about writing was from Diana Gabaldon.

<Bonnee> "Write a damn good book.". <g>

<JL> What you're describing is what I labeled (quoted in PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY on this) "Intimate Adventure."

<JL> That's replacing the "action" in "action/adventure" with Intimacy as the plot-driving mechanism.

<JL> And intimacy has little if anything to do with sex.

<Bonnee> Yes, intimacy is sexy as hell. More sexy than dripping body parts. We admit our main audience of readers are women, so we give them the stories they want to read.

<Bonnee> Intimacy is important to a woman. She makes love with her head. If her mind is fixated on when she'll get the laundry done, it simply ain't gonna happen. <g>

<Bonnee> So getting into her head is the ultimate important feature. And that's erotic.

<jeff> Would you review a romance book for men differently that for women based on the audieance?

<JL> So when faced with a slush pile of manuscripts, how do you find one that has INTIMACY in it?

<jeff> If there is such a thing as a romance novel for men :)

<JL> Oh, there is, Jeff!

<Bonnee> That's the question, Jeff. <g>

<JL> Many men read romances trying to figure out what pleases women.

<Bonnee> To be honest, when I reviewed, I reviewed for myself. I can't review geared for a man because I'm not a man

<JL> And today's romances often are half from the man's POV. (that part being not-so-well-written usually)

<Karen> Hey, if they used most of those books, I couldn't deal with it. I don't connect well with a romance novel.

<Bonnee> I can only review and/or read based on what I like (again, back to that subjective)

<Silke> Hah!

<Bonnee> For the other question.... Intimacy comes from character, no way around it

<Bonnee> Hey Silke!

<Silke> Afore I do anything else... Bonnee?

<Bonnee> Yes?

<Silke> Check your email. I've just sent Galactic to you, in Doc, with Tabs etc

<Bonnee> PITA... LOL! <g>

<Bonnee> Thanks, dear! You saved me a lot of work. <G>

<Silke> It's done. You won't have to convert

<Bonnee>I was tearing my hair out reformatting "Waiting For The Galactic Bus" by Parke Godwin

<JL> My personal definition of genre (in an article somewhere in our workshop here) is that genre is defined by what's MISSING not by what's there. "Literature" with a cap L is the kind of fiction that has all the genres in it. You have to have the masculine POV and the feminine -- because any human being is part masculine and part feminine, and to appeal to the whole-person in the reader, the mature person, you have to have both kinds of appeal.

<Bonnee> She just saved my sanity by doing it for me <g>

<Silke> Naw, Parke sent "Galactic Bus" to us in HTML, Bonnee was having a hellish time converting.

<JL> Godwin NEVER writes SHORT -- I sympathize.

<JL> Hi Silke -- glad to meet you live.

<jeff> I read that story, really funny

<Silke> LOL

<Silke> Yep, same here, everyone.

<Bonnee> Actually, I've always felt Literature (with the capital "L" <g>) is geared more for a universal goal. The greater good and all that

<JL> Jean's going to break from work and come say hello.

<Bonnee> The widest band of audience with the hopes that it becomes those kind of books they assign in World Lit classes in college

<jeff> I don't care about greater good. I just want a good story! <grin>

<Silke> Same here, Jeff

<JL> Yes, exactly -- the greater-good-and-all-that.

<Bonnee> Genre books tend more towards "timely"

<Silke> If it's something that keeps me turning the page - I'm happy

<Karen> I think that goes for all of us here.....

<Bonnee> It's not a universal or eternal theme

<jeff> Yep me too.

<JL> And that was of course one problem with Marion Zimmer Bradley's books -- she wrote classics, with a genre label.

<Bonnee> Hell.... to be honest, writers of literature are more interested in world peace than having a romping good time <g>

<Karen> For example.... the most recent Marion Zimmer Bradley Darkover books she had a co-author with. They were so different from the originals, I couldn't read them. Made me ill at heart to try.

<Silke> I'm hell with submissions. When they come in to me, I tend to just take one look, if it doesn't catch my interest within a page - rejection.

<JL> Silke, we've been discussing reviewing and editing with an eye to producing a log we can post.

<Bonnee> Genre fiction is nothing more than a way to classify and have an idea of what you're getting into. You wouldn't buy a SF book and expect to read a Gothic romance

<JL> Silke - that was just the comment I was hoping for. The FIRST PAGE is crucial.

<Bonnee> Hence, genres classify by expectation

<Bonnee> One of a couple things HAVE to happen on the first page

<Bonnee> You need to engage the reader into wanting more

<Silke> Yes, it is. If I don't get a "feel" for a story in the first page, I *might* read the second. But if it's then not catching on with me - outta the door with it.

<Silke> Hi Jean

<Jean> Hi!

<JL> <Silke> Yes, it is. If I don't get a "feel" for a story in the first page, I *might* read the second. But if it's then not catching on with me - outta the door with it.

<JL> You just missed that comment, Jean.

<Bonnee> Whether it's by introducing the story question or creating an instant conflict doesn't matter as long as you've caught and entranced the reader

<Jean> About discarding a story that doesn't grab?

<Silke> Yep, Jean

<JL> question/conflict -- that's what you read for on the first page, then?

<Bonnee> I can do that in the first sentence <g>

<Jean> My problem is that romance authors sure do know how to grab,

<Silke> I tend to reject in one page.

<Jean> but half-way through most of them bog down.

<Silke> True, but if they can't keep me reading, or start to confuse me...

<Bonnee> Sagging middle <g>

<jeff> But if what you saying is true about being subjective, how do you know what will grab and what wont?

<JL> OK, you check the first page, and the middle -- where's the next crucial point of failure?

<Silke> I have to say, one of the books that KEPT me reading was "The Rainbow Bridge." I was getting grumpy when I had to leave the monitor!! LOL!

<Jean> If it will grab jaded readers like us, it should grab others as well.

<Bonnee> The problem with most romances is editors expect the _romance_ to be the central theme of a book. The romance should be integral, but not the "be all, end all" of the story

<jeff> And shouldn't it?

<Jean> I like to read and write books where something else is the theme, but there is a romance.

<Silke> The first people they have to grab is us. If they can't do that....

<Bonnee> It has to be _liberally laced_ through a damn strong plot

<jeff> Oh I see so it has to be the strong point but not the only point correct?

<Silke> Yes, Jean. I don't mind a really good storyline, even if it's not romance.

<Bonnee> Correct!

<Jean> If I can ever find time to write it, you should like my S~G romance.

<Bonnee> If you haven't got enough plot to fill the pages, the middle will sag

<Bonnee> It's inevitable and inescapable

<Karen> Jean -- YOU HAD BETTER FIND TIME.

<Jean> That's why I read few romances.

<Silke> If you look at the site, for instance, you'll see Parke Godwin's book. Not romance. But a GREAT book.

<jeff> Now that makes sense and thinking back on the books I have read, all the themes were strong point but there were other plots mixed in too

<Bonnee> Yes, but I could recommend some that would keep you hanging on your chair <g>

<Jean> Do you publish reprints?

<Bonnee> Yes, we do.

<Silke> Depends on the reprint, Jean

<Silke> But yeah. "Hellfire" is one.

<Jean> Jacqueline, perhaps we should try "Ambrov Keon" here.

<Bonnee> Parke's collection were all previously published

<Jean> Ambrov Keon.

<JL> "Ambrov Keon" yes, but of course I'm thinking of THOSE OF MY BLOOD -- which is a vampire romance.

<jeff> oh duh?

<Silke> Jackie, fire it at me <g>

<Jean> It's Sime~Gen with a major romance, but the book is not a traditional romance.

<Silke> I'm the one with the teeth <g>

* Karen smiles. "That's for sure."

<jeff> <Jeff hides>

<Karen> Remember, I've got all the chapters in electronic form waiting here.

<Silke> Aww Jeff, I only nibble very lightly <g>

<Jean> Jacqueline, where did you go?

<jeff> <raised eyebrows>

<jeff> Cool don't like a woman who bites.

<jeff> :)

<Karen> Perhaps Jacqueline went to find an example from Ambrov Keon.

<jeff> Vampire, bites. Oh goodness a pun and I didn't even mean it......

<Silke> <laff> Jeff? http:// www.satinkaslair.co.uk/pics.htm <g>

<Silke> When I say teeth - I mean it <g>

<jeff> ok you got my curiousity aroused.

<Silke> Bottom picture

<Jean> Ambrov Keon is ready and waiting--we've just been waiting to decide whether we wanted to put it on BiblioBytes along with House of Zeor.

<Karen> I know its ready, I gave Jacqueline the electronic files on disk at Darkover.

<Silke> Well, I'm always looking for good vamps. But I have to say: J.C. is currently setting a serious standard there <g>

<Bonnee> Jeff, you asked about how to engage a reader on the first page....

<JL> "Those of My Blood" is a science-fiction romance in which ALL the attributes of the traditional vampire are present, plot-driving elements -- but the vampires are aliens from outer space. A vampire is sent to the moon to investigate a crashed space ship, where one of the people working for him is his ex-fiance left behind because he "died". He has to battle his "vampire father" for power over the (still "living") alien in the wreck, who is of their species.

<jeff> Yes I did Bonnee. By the way, Silke you're a very cute vampire :)

<Bonnee> It's not that hard. You need to establish your character -- who they are and what they want -- and make me care about them

<jeff> But I am a day person

<JL> Anyway, that was a St. Martin's Hardcover, I have the rights back, and it's got a sequel too, which I also got the rights back on.

<Silke> Oooo-kay..... I tell you one of my biggest grumps. Vampire Aliens. <g>

<Bonnee> If I care, I'll continue reading. It's really simple. Doing it is another matter. <g>

<JL> It got TREMENDOUS reviews -- best I ever got. But St. Martin's never put it in paperback, and under-printed the hardcover. The vampire FANS love that book.

<Silke> If they are done VERY well, okay. But I'm kinda traditional when it comes to the critters.

<JL> And there it sits.

<Bonnee> So, send it over, JL.

<jeff> Ok so the secret is to get people's attention first and then keep it correct?

<Silke> For instance, a book I absolutely loathed was "Prince of Dreams"

<Bonnee> Absolutely!

<Bonnee> The biggest problem writers do is try to tell too many stories at once.

<Karen> Now if you can get "Those of My Blood" reprinted in paperback...followed by "DreamSpy"....

<Bonnee> Every story is some_one_'s story. Their version of what's happening, regardless of point of view.

<JL> "Prince of Dreams" suffered from being written by someone who hasn't spent their whole life learning sf worldbuilding.

<Bonnee> Yes, it's important for a writer to know every character who shows up on the page and what drives them.

<Bonnee> (Evil isn't good enough) But that doesn't mean it has to be on the page.

<jeff> Ok now I think this is beginning to make sense Bonnee

<Jean> Ambrov Keon is the story of Risa Tigue, junct channel--how she is drawn to Keon by Sergi ambrov Keon and eventually falls in love with him while turning Keon into an essential part of Gulf Territory and in the end becoming Sectuib in Keon.

<Bonnee> You begin with one character and that character has a goal. Period.

<Jean> There is lots of neat stuff--she first has to learn to see Sergi as a man, because he's Gen.

<Bonnee> Everything that happens in the book must revolve around that goal. Characters are introduced to either help or hinder. Period.

<Karen> Gen = "inferior" in Risa's eyes. (grin)

<jeff> Simple enough Bonnee so how come it appears to be so difficult to do for some authors?

<Jean> Risa simply want to disjunct (stop killing). Then she has to create a place where she can do so out of Keon

<Bonnee> In a romance, which is generally told from the heroine's POV, the hero is either going to help her or hinder her to ahcieving that goal.

<Silke>"Prince of Dreams" suffered from being so far removed from vampires that it wasn't a vampire anymore - it was some weird alien.

<Bonnee> Authors make it difficult for themselves because they think they need parallel plots and side goals and all that kind of stuff.

<Silke> I know a lot of writers (myself included) make the mistake of telling a story switching POV's all the time.

<Bonnee> They confuse the issue rather than make it complex.

<Jean> Parallel plots and so on happen if they happen.

<jeff> Silke, nice pages too. just looking through them

<Bonnee> Yes, but if they aren't connected to the _main_ story question, then you've now introduced confusion.

<JL> [EXCERPT FROM "Those of My Blood"] The tarmac of the Quito spaceport shimmered in the harsh sun. The group of scientists bound for Project Hail on Luna milled about within the red-painted circle under the sign reading HIGH SECURITY PASSENGER PICKUP. They all wore Project Hail flight suits. Most had stacked their identical flight bags, each stenciled with the Project log, at athe place where the people-mover would soon pick them up. Two armed guards flanked the pile.

Dr. Titus Shiddehara, clutching his own flight bag, hovered at the edge of the crowd, with them but not of them. He scanned them, searching for the one who would be his adversary, reminding himself not to squint against the sun.

Remember to act human, Connie had adminished him, and whatever you do, this time keep your objectivity. Titus intended to do just that. Connie had made it very clear when she'd chosen him for this mission that, this time, his life depended on his objectivity.

Far to his left reporters crowded up against a guarded fence. They formed a churning mass of humanity punctuated by the shouts of video and sound recorders. One reporter, wearing a fashionable red fedora and reflective sunglasses like Titus's, watched -- a stillness amidst their motion.

<JL> end first page.

<jeff> Ok Bonnee so the secret is the "kiss" method, Keep It Simple Stupid?

<Silke> Thank you, Jeff

<Bonnee> In a mystery, you have side plots, but they all lead in one direction... discovering the killer or the thief. The direction doesn't change. The goal doesn't change.

* Karen smiles. "JL just typed the opening lines from "Those of My Blood....a long forgotten memory for me.."

<Silke> Hm... KISS method... well. No. Straightforward, not "simple".

<Silke> If you have side plots - make sure people can follow them without being distracted.

<Bonnee> Complex doesn't necessarily mean a lot of characters and a lot of subplots. Yes, Silke. Straightforward.

<Jean> Ambrov Keon opens in the middle of a hurricane.

<Bonnee> That's a good way of defining it.

<jeff> Ok Silke I am confused, wouldn't straight forward be simple?

<Silke> No. Straightforward can be extremely complex. <g>

<Bonnee> No, simple is "Can I get the financing to buy the house?"

<Jean> Well, obviously Jacqueline is going to give you "Those of My Blood."

<jeff> Oh poop, just when I thought I had it the rules changed.

<Jean> We'll talk about Ambrov Keon some other time.

<Silke> Have CLEAR goal. If there are side plots, then they have to make sense and they have to be MINOR side plots.

<jeff> Ok Bonnee I follow that one.

<Bonnee> Straightforward is the steps you need to go through in order to get that financing, but you end up owing about twenty people favors

<JL> Now, Silke -- tell us why you'd reject that.

<Jean> Rules don't change, Jeff--the student just does something that follows one set of rules but breaks another that the teacher hasn't gotten to yet.

<Bonnee> To be honest, there are no rules in writing. <g>

<Silke> JL - You lost me in the first sentence. Or rather in the second.

<Bonnee> There are rules of thumb which can be learned only to be broken later.

<jeff> Ok the rules don't change but my lack of understanding does. When more clarifcation comes, my thought of the rules change with it.

<Jean> There is a rule, though, that you can't break more than one rule per story!

<JL> "The tarmac of the Quito spaceport shimmered in the hot sun." That lost you?

<jeff> JL does that story live on the net?

<Bonnee> Nope, not true. As long as you know why those "rules" are in place, you can break every single one of them as long as you know what you're

<JL> the group of scientists lost you?

<JL> No, it doesn't live on the net yet.

<Silke> It makes no sense to me. While I want to know why the reporters are there, I wouldn't necessarily read on. It doesn't grab me.

<Bonnee> doing when you do it and have a solid reason for doing so.

<jeff> darn, might be easier.

<Silke> Huh? I didn't see that bit. I only saw the reporters bit.

<JL> It's a typical sf opening -- not a typical romance opening, to be sure. It's "there's an alien among us".

<Silke> I found the beginning, but with the window jumping up and down.... I'll tell you when I see the entire first page without distractions.

<Silke> Email me <g>

<Silke> ---Jean. Rules - In My Humble Opinion - are there to be broken.

<Silke> All of them, if need be. <g>

<jeff> Silke, I just read one of your stories on the net. Ok I have been grabbed :)

<Bonnee> Nothing wrong with the begining. You've set the stage. What you do with it will determine if I keep reading. <g>

<jeff> This whole conversation make sense now.

<Silke> LOL - Well, that worked then, Jeff <g>

<Bonnee> The only rule that's written in gold-leafed granite is "Write a good book." The problem is that "Good" part is all dependent on who's doing the reading. <g>

<jeff> Yep it did, I can clearly see what you mean about being grabbed holding the audience's attention.

<Silke> Jeff, you wouldn't believe how many "Nag" emails I get to put up new stories. If only I had time.... <sigh>

<Karen> If you can find the secret of more time, please share that.

<Bonnee> I'm working on that time warp. Have had someone researching for years. <g>

<jeff> Yes I can believe it. The genre was not what I would normally read but the story was cool?

<Silke> Which one did you read?

<jeff> only a lifetime.

<Silke> The one I get nagged about the most is "Edge of Hell" and "Closer to the Edge."

<jeff> I will have to tag this site and read the rest now

<Silke> They are bugging me for the third part which is long overdue. <g>

<Jean> OK--here is the opening of Ambrov Keon, which you will probably consider boring.

<Jean> The Mizipi River flowed smoothly in the late-summer stillness. No breeze stirred its calm surface. The heavily laden raft glided on the current with almost no guidance. The river swung around a bend and flowed south once more, the broad surface of the water reflecting unbroken blue sky for as far as the man and woman aboard the raft could see. They drifted straight down the middle of the river, and Morgan Tigue set his pole down. "We've got clear sailing now, Risa," he said.

Risa balanced her pole, twice as tall as she was, and laid it beside her father's on the raft. "I'll be glad to get home," she said, seating herself on a canvas-covered chest. "I loved the trading, but getting our goods home is just plain boring."

Tigue laughed, the hearty laugh of a man who enjoys life despite its hardships. "Be glad of boredom, Reesey--you don't really want to fight the Gen Border Patrol!"

<JL> Silke has the whole first page of BLOOD now. Bonnee and Silke -- hack us to ribbons, it's OK. This is an EDITING LESSON not a fan-fest.

<jeff> Oh and she does mean it folks so take your best shot :)

<Karen> But for how long are we going to keep this "class" goint?

<Karen> going....and GO FOR IT.

<JL> We've got 10 minutes.

<Karen> This _I_ want to see.

<jeff> Me too :)

* Karen is sitting here in anticipation.

<Silke> LOL

<Silke> Bonnee hasn't got it yet

<Karen> so we wait....

<jeff> If I was brave and talented, I would do one too. But although I have read thousands Of books, I am not much of a world crafter like Jean and JL

<JL> <Silke> I like it. There is enough of a hint of mystery there to keep me turning the page. When I said you lost me - I'd only seen the last paragraph. <g> Guess the rest shot past me in a hurry.

<Bonnee> While I'm collecting that, let's see if I can pop a begging in here and ask your opinions <g>

<JL> OK, that's good.

<Silke> Okay, Jean?

<Jean> OK

<Bonnee> She knew he was coming. And there was nothing she could do to stop him.

<Bonnee> She could go into town, ask Sheriff Massey to keep him away. That would only bring publicity. The Goose Point Times wasn't much, but it was big enough to gain the attention of the larger, regional papers, and it was run by newcomers. They didn't understand. They weren't here when everything fell apart, when she fell from the pinnacle of feature magazines to the depths of obscurity. And they didn't understand she wanted it to stay that way.

None of that mattered, though. She felt the despair that clung and drove him, the grief that fueled his tenacity. Unlike the others before him, he would be her destruction and she could do nothing more than wait for his arrival.

<Silke> What I've seen didn't grab me. One thing to remember is that if a reader has to look twice at a name to try and pronounce it somehow - you've stopped them reading and cut off the flow.

<Jean> Oh--that's a GREAT opening!

<Jean> Then it deteriorates in the second paragraph.

<Karen> Silke -- which excerpt are you referring to so I can clarify it...

<Silke> The one Jean posted..

<Silke> Might want to rename the river.

<Jean> I thought he was right outside the door.

<jeff> <just listening>

<Jean> Mizipi is established as future name of Mississippi in the S~G series.

<JL> Bonnee -- the emotional 'direction' of that opening is DOWN, and the tension dissipates rather than increases. The author has mis-identified the point in time when this story opens.

<Silke> I'm sure it is, Jean. But it stopped me dead in my tracks for a moment.

<Jean> Too much and not enough info after great opening paragraph.

<Silke> Agreed, JL & Jean.

<Silke> After the opening, I want to know extactly why she frears him. Not how she got there.

<Jean> Silke, sf readers do expect names to be different.

<Jean> Right--I want to know where this guy is, whether he has a knife or a gun, etc.

<Silke> Yeah, true. However, I'm kinda reading blind here <g> I don't know where it's heading, whether it's SciFi or Romance...

<jeff> So the point your trying to make Bonnee and Silke is keep the text as simple and "smooth" as possible without a large splattering of difficult names correct?

<Jean> I don't care about her career!

<Jean> The names I make up are kindergarten compared to Jacqueline's.

<JL> In fact, Jean -- WORLDBUILDING requires the differences. The secret is that the differences carry information. We know from the name Mizipi that we're probably on Earth or a colony started by people from Earth, but in the far future when the name has elided.

<Silke> Yes. If you use names that spell in a way that makes the reader stumble for a second - don't use it on the first page.

<Bonnee> Names don't bother me. I come up with some kind of shorthand fro really difficult names in my head.

<Jean> If anything, Risa and Morgan Tigue are not alien enough.

<jeff> Yes I know Jean :)

<Bonnee> But I will admit that too many introduced too quickly is like reading Russian lit for me <g>

<JL> But the lack of alien-ness in those names carries information too.

<Karen> Maybe so, Jean, but I love that book....

<Silke> Later on it's not a problem. By then your reader has a bit of a feel of where they are at.

<Jean> Everyone who read it loved it.

<Jean> All twelve of them.

<jeff> by the way, Silke, I voted on your story :)

<Silke> LOL! Thanks Jeff! More like you are needed <g>

<JL> Silke, I think you may have been conditioned by reading too much sf by writers who haven't studied worldbuilding, so you expect the naming to be done WRONG.

<Silke> JL - I don't read SF <g>

<Karen> There -- and I don't read romance <GRIN>

<Silke> Fantasy, yes, but not hardcore SF

<jeff> I do like a good story!

<Jean> Folks, it's 3pm, so I have to leave and go do other things.

<JL> Then you should read BLOOD as if it were international-intrigue -- a suspense novel.

<Jean> Nice to talk to you.

<Silke> I do too, and I will be reading "Waiting for the Galactic Bus", but I have to confess that I couldn't get into "Masters of Solitude."

<Bonnee> The only thing I don't read are spy thrillers. Donn't like 'em, probably never will. <g>

<Karen> Thanks, Jeff.

<Bonnee> Nice to meet you, Jean!

<Silke> <g> Karen, have a cold shower or a man handy <g>

<jeff> Thanks Jean

<Karen> I'll have some sense made out of this tonight so Jacqueline can put it up on the web.

<jeff> <blush>

<jeff> I am outnumbered here!

<Karen> Shower is available. My husband isn't into any form of emotional attachment after 21 years.

<JL> Thank you for coming Jeff - you MADE our day!

<Silke> LOL! Jeff, I write Erotic Romance when the mood strikes me. For the girls. <g>

<Bonnee> <g>

<jeff> Well I liked it anyway :)

<Silke> Most guys do, actually.

<jeff> Thanks JL, I did have fun......

<Jean> Bye everyone!

<JL> bye Jean

<Silke> I remember a dare... oh yes.... <g>

<jeff> Bye jean take care.

<Silke> bye jean

<Bonnee> <koff> I sold several pieces to "Penthouse" <g>

<Bonnee> Bye, Jean!

<JL> Penthouse is a good market.

<jeff> Don't read that either,

<JL> And not easy to hit, either.

<jeff> I told you I was a prude.

<Silke> The first one I ever wrote was when someone dared me to write it. I'd been slagging off "Black Lace" for "No Plot" at the time

<Bonnee> Pays _very_ well <g>

<jeff> What Bonnee? Penthouse?

<JL> Yes, Penthouse pays very well -- but uses very short pieces -- and few of them.

<Bonnee> Yes, Penthouse pays extremely well considering the word count <g>

<jeff> Because men only look at the pictures <grin>

<Bonnee> But women don't. <g>

<JL> Very hard market to crack. Yes -- it's mostly graphics, layout, bizzaz and advertising.

<jeff> Women read penthouse?

<Karen> How should we conclude this first meeting.....

<Karen> Some women do read Penthouse.... I'm not one of them.

<Bonnee> The senior editor was bugging me to write more. Willing to take up to 3-4 pieces per month.

<JL> Even so, that's not quite a living wage.

<Bonnee> But I can' write "smut" unless I'm in the mood. <g>

<jeff> First of all, Thanks Bonnee and Silke, for being here Really appreciate your time....

<Silke> By saying that if you don't have a "Winning Beginning" you've lost the reader. Editors need to bear that in mind.

<Bonnee> Well, if students are reading, they need to email me their address so I can get the first assignment over to them.

<JL> Whether a beginning is "winning" or not depends on the audience you're trying to win.

<Silke> Yep. Several synopses....

<Bonnee> Actually, yeah, I could have pulled in almost $2000 a month if I'd stuck with it.

<Silke> True. I think the first lesson is to judge a synopsis.

<jeff> I agree JL, could we use the story you sent Bonnee and Silke as part of the assignment?

<Silke> See which one grabs you, and why. Analyse it.

<Karen> You post to Worldcrafters or writers list that the assignment is ready -- and then put it up on the student showcase I think.

<Silke> We have a few synopses hanging around we can use.

<Karen> How do we get this course open to people to take it????

<JL> For example, the real HOOK in the beginning of BLOOD is "Remember to act human" -- after that point, MY kind of reader finds the book a 'can't put it down' read.

<Bonnee> That's what caught my attention, JL.

<JL> Yes, the opening of BLOOD can be used here -- it's within the word limit and won't affect the copyright.

<Silke> Bonnee? How about "First Lesson" Synopsis.

<jeff> If JL wouldn't mind us using her story, we could post the to worldcrafters as the assignmnet that will be looked at.

<Silke> THEN go to the first chapter.

<Bonnee> First let's deal with a beginning. The writing will tell more than the synopsis. But first part and _then_ synopsis

<Silke> Yep, that works for me.

<JL> Wait, Jeff -- what story are you referring to?

<Bonnee> Got to see first they can form a coherent sentence, then if they can pull off a plot.

<Silke> Okay... I'll let you into a secret here. The first thing I would change on Ambrov Keon.... is the title <g>

<JL> The reason for that title is that it is a direct takeoff on the ENDING of the previous novel, HOUSE OF ZEOR.

<JL> It was designed to sell as a sequel. But it's a tradition to re-title reprints in SF, so it can be done.

<Silke> Yeah, possibly. Unfortunately, if it doesn't stand alone, or relies on someone having read the first book.... It'll be twice as hard to get it published with another publisher.

<Silke> JL - I don't know SF very well, remember?

<Karen> But it does stand alone. All 8 books in the series stand alone.

<JL> No, each of our novels is a total STAND ALONE READ.

<Bonnee> Works for me.

<JL> That was insisted upon by our editor, Sharon Jarvis.

<jeff> Ok Silke, consider this a challenge :)

<Silke> If you can grab me, great. It'll be hard work tho <g>

<Bonnee> The challenge is to see if you can grab me without my knowing anything about the universe <g>

<Silke> Exactly, Bonnee.

<Bonnee> I think so too

<Silke> You have to be able to grab us without the prior "knowledge".

<Bonnee> The true test of a stand alone book is if it works without the reader knowing anything prior to the reading

<jeff> Ok well you folks post on worldcrafters what you intend to do and then see if you can "grab" some students. :)

<Silke> Karen.... if the writer has to clarify the story - then it's out of the door in a second. <g>

<Bonnee> Okay

<Silke> Because it should all be explained in the book. If it's not there, the reader won't know.

<jeff> Cool, I think we accomplished something today. Thanks alot.

<Bonnee> Actually, I do read SF, Karen. <g>

<Karen> I want to thank you, too.

<Silke> Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not any good. I haven't read it. I can only go by what I see and what the author tells me in the book.

<Bonnee> I'm not keen on the real hard core science-based stories, but I love world-building.

<jeff> HI again

<Karen> We lost you.... glad you're back.

<JL> Hi - lost that screen! I think I don't understand something that's going on here.

<jeff> Then you will love these stories Bonnee

<Bonnee> Agreed, which is why this will be a good test case

<Silke> Ah, jeff, you are now missing the point. this isn't about whether or not it's suitable for Sime~Gen.

<Silke> This is about editing in general.

<jeff> No that's not what I meant.

<Karen> It's if you can grab the reader.... not because of what we think of it.

<Silke> Oh, ok, maybe I misunderstood <s>

<jeff> I am thinking of the "grab" for the students nothing more

<JL> I was only offering BLOOD and Jean Ambrov Keon because they're examples of openings that are structured so they can be analyzed by editorial standards.

<jeff> This course is like a story, if we can't grab the students, there is no story

<Karen> Exactly, Jeff.

<Silke> Okay. I tell you the way I see it: If a student knows Sime~Gen, they are at a disadvantage *because* they know it.

<JL> AK has an action-opening. BLOOD has a suspense-opening. AK is about 80,000 words. BLOOD almost twice that. The openings are structured differently because of the lengths.

<Silke> It's easy to miss something that way.

<JL> Yes, Silke I believe you're correct about that.

<JL> That's why BLOOD -- it's such an obscure book. There are students here who want it and can't find it.

<jeff> Oh I see your point. They like the stories so they will be biased correct

<Bonnee> And Jeff is right in that we need to grab people. I thin on e of the problems with getting people into a course like this

<Bonnee> Is that writers like to write their stories, but analyzing them and tearing them down is a whole 'nother matter

<Silke> No, what I mean is, they have prior knowledge. So if the author "assumes" to build on that knowledge, then while it may make sense to the editor - it won't to a reader who doesn't know the universe.

<Bonnee> That's where the work comes into the profession and people don't like to think about that part <g>

<jeff> But most of the people here know the universe, I am just trying to think of a way to get student in for now. It can be built on later but for now we have to get this thing to fly

<Bonnee> And that actually might work. Since I don't know the universe, I can bring a perspective that they can relate to

<jeff> Yes Bonnee good point.

<Silke> I know, Jeff <smile> It's a great idea, I'm just stating a point that will come into it.

<JL> S~G has each novel built as an entry-point into the Universe -- they're not just stand-alones -- they are each designed to pull a different KIND of readership into this universe.

<Bonnee> If I have a problem with something _they_ understand, they'll understand my explanation of why it's not working for me

<Silke> True.

<JL> Silke - I think as BAIT you'd be better off using a piece by Jean or me that has never been read by these people, in a universe they've never heard of.

<jeff> Agreed both Bonnee and Silke. But like I said let's get this bird to fly. We can work on bigger wings later.

<Silke> Yes, that makes sense

<JL> I have 5 complete novels in the "can" that haven't sold -- two military SF -- and a trilogy.

<Bonnee> That's up to you, JL. Pick a piece and send it over to me as an attached file.

<JL> Review for me the criteria we're looking for here.

<Silke> <g> You'll have to work with a hardcase, JL <g> Me. Since that "ain't my bag" I'll be looking at it with a magnifying glass <g>

<Silke> Just warnin' ya <laff>

<jeff> Ok cool, that will work. Didn't mean to be pushy or anything just want to get this thing started.

<Silke> No no, wasn't perceived as such.

<JL> well, that's the point of course -- we want to teach these newbies what it means to take the heat

<Bonnee> First chapter and a synopsis. I'll deal with the chapter first since the writing should sell a book, but the synopsis will tell me if there's a viable plot

<JL> OK, you want a PARTIAL of an unsold work.

<jeff> Just making sure there was no one offended thats all. I am kind of a results orientated person and we dont' have any results yet :)

<Silke> Naw. You gotta work hard to offend me. <G>

<Silke> Gawd. Me neither. Most of my writing stinks <g>

<JL> See, if it's a previously published work, it's already been through this process and been approved by a working editor. If the students don't KNOW beforehand that the work could have passed muster, then you can rip it to shreds to make whatever point you want.

<jeff> Not in my nature Silke believe me. You can ask anyone ;)

<Silke> LOL

<Silke> Yep, JL.

<Bonnee> Yup, you're right on the money, JL. If you've got one to offer, I'd appreciate it.

<jeff> Well folks, I can honestly say I have really enjoyed this even though I will not be taking the course....

<Silke> Aw, you should Jeff, even if it's just for fun.

<jeff> believe me, if I was entertaining the thought of writing a story, I probably would.

<jeff> But don't have the guts to even try :)

<JL> OK, which do you want -- military sf (keep in mind it always pivots on a RELATIONSHIP, even if not an actual romance, and mostly human-alien relationship) or sf-adventure.

<Bonnee> <g>

<Karen> Jeff.... I don't write, but I sure as shen do EDIT.

<Bonnee> Military SF works for me

<JL> OK, where to send this?

<Silke> So I shall say bye bye... (It's already 21:30 here)

<JL> bye Silke -- thanks for coming!

<Silke> Sure, no probs <g>

<Karen> Night....both of you.....

<jeff> Good point Karen. Ok Silke thanks alot for showing up.

<Bonnee> Thanks, Silke!

<Silke> See ya all! It was fun

<JL> right -- OK. Let's see if there's anything here on my hard drive.

<jeff> Night all.

<JL> bye Jeff

<Silke> <wave>

<Karen> Shall I close the log here.

<jeff> Yep

<JL> Yes, Karen that's a wrap!

Session Close: Sun Feb 27 16:30:40 2000

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