#chat created on Sun Mar 12 14:39:18
<JL> Did anyone have any problems reading the Assignment? Did it
post clearly enough?
<tamarion> Cool, but long. hard to digest it all.
<AnnMarie> Posted just fine.
<tamarion> had to go over it a couple times.
<JL> Well, consider that a slushpile reader is expected to go
through 5 or 10 of those presentations a DAY!
<tamarion> Wow. ow to the eyes!
<AnnMarie> Far easier if you're a slushpile reader ... you only
read a single page then. For most of 'em at least. Many of the ms'
that come through the door don't even get to the slush pile 'cause the
author can't follow directions on how to submit.
<tamarion> You know, I don't feel qualified to judge the
piece...I know so little.
<JL> That's why this is a CLASS!!! You're not supposed to
already know how to judge stuff. That's what we're learning here.
Criteria and methods to judge submissions.
<tamarion> But I feel I should know something though, after all
the years I have written and read...but hey, this is good for my ego.
<AnnMarie> I am feeling very nervy about commenting on it too,
if it's any consolation.
<tamarion> Thanks AM. I was getting worried. Besides, my likes
get in the way, I think of being fair.
<AnnMarie> Think of it as exercise for the heart muscles ...
near panic. Fair is difficult ... I think much of why ms' are rejected
on form letters now ... that way it is either acceptable or not.
<MargareTZ> Problem I see, is figuring out what standards you
are supposed to be looking for. What your imaginary publisher wants.
<AnnMarie> I placed the imaginary publisher at 1975 generic SF,
possibly Playboy. Basically setting the style to the publisher, rather
than vice versa for this assignment.
<MargareTZ> Action adventure then?
<tamarion> Dang, I just judged it, I didn't think of year or
specific publisher. Lesson learned, I think?
<AnnMarie> Yes, A/A, minimal character and showing ...
acceptance of 'token plot' and 'humans in funny makeup' for aliens.
<MargareTZ> Yep.
<tamarion> I liked the rippling head ridges though. Ewww,
grossed me out in a nice way.
<AnnMarie> Made me think of modern Klingons.
<MargareTZ> And the same for the head ridges. Can do with minor
makeup. Don't need puppets
<AnnMarie> Or now, computer animation
<tamarion> I loved the description of Dintar. Red eyes...like a
jewel...coool.
<AnnMarie> Made me think of heavy metal world, unfortunately ...
red often implies gold content in tissues.
<tamarion> I wish the Ylam had been explained sooner though. I
didn't know what that was until I skimmed the later chapter outlines.
<AnnMarie> Yes, I think 'science as window-dressing' and naive
SF could do really, really well epublished.
<MargareTZ> It is an interesting side-track though. What would
be needed to update it to modern standards.
<AnnMarie> It's hard to get everything crammed in up front,
tamarion ... part of why I write modern style, that way I am not as
dependant on the science.
<AnnMarie> Yes it is, Margaret. Fix the science! Shift it to
third limited and not partial omniscient.
<MargareTZ> I remember last year at a Cyblings chat, Gardner
Dozois said he would like to see more Space Opera. Yes, alternating
third l.o. with the alien the alternate.
<tamarion> That would make it more interesting for sure. I liked
the beginning with the dialog. Seemed to make it faster.
<Ann> I usually start with the kicker as dialogue.
<tamarion> Then it kinda slowed up midway with description.
<Ann> That style did have a lot more description.
<MargareTZ> Yes, today it would need to be broken up more.
<tamarion> yesyesyes!!!!
<Ann> Also it would be shown more ... less going on, action
wise, more reactions to dialogue and environment.
<tamarion> That made it harder going through it, even though I
was curious of what would happen. I agree with you also Ann.
<Ann> Internal reactions, that is.
<MargareTZ> Editing is grand. You can advise all sorts of stuff
you haven't even mastered yourself!
<JL> So far no one here sounds like an editor -- if I may
venture to be so harsh upon the students?
<tamarion> gulp... I am better at complaining than finding
answers anyway. (VBG)
<MargareTZ> Change in definition of action.
<JL> No one has addressed any of the elements that a slushpile
reader or purchasing editor would be looking for.
<tamarion> how can we sound like an editor jl?
<MargareTZ> Will it sell? Isn't that number one question?
<JL> But you will recall what she said last week when she
outlined how to tackle this assignment? What were the points she made
in order -- the ORDER is important.
<Ann> From the POV of a slushpile reader, it is very different,
particularly for the direct assignment.
<JL> Well, we demonstrate that we read the instructions and did
the assignment.
<tamarion> It was character-believable or not, plot too much or
too little, surroundings, too much or too little...
<Greg> Characterization was most important...what makes them
unique...real.
<Ann> Very good, tamarion, judging it by today's standards.
<MargareTZ> And really the discussion has touched on most of it.
Characterization is a bit too thin for today.
<Ann> I didn't want to say it, thank you Margaret.
<tamarion> Character was first, because if they aren't real the
story won't 'fly'.
<Ann> That and the conflict between Barry stating he was a captain
and his actions didn't sit well with me.
<MargareTZ> But it was what was wanted in the period it was
written for.
<Ann> I read quite a bit of military SF. Exactly.
<MargareTZ> Same with plot.
<tamarion> Seems it needed something more, but I can't figure it
out as to what.
<MargareTZ> Setting good for period, too much description for
today.
<tamarion> It might be okay on description if broken up more Margaret.
It was too much to digest at once and slowed the story down.
<MargareTZ> Exactly, for today's standards.
<Ann> Description of setting, as Bonnee said, has become more of
a character and less of a backdrop.
<tamarion> thanks.
<Ann> I really liked that point of hers.
<MargareTZ> Technique, very professional.
<Ann> That was also true before WWII, reading Titus Groan right
now, and it is heavy on description, but Gormenghast castle is a
character in the story as well as the people. I think, from the pov of
a slushpile reader, the hook wasn't hard enough, even for the period.
"That must be a human. What else could it possibly be?" ...
doesn't give me enough to figure out where the plot is going, exactly.
<tamarion> I probably would have given benefit of doubt, but
with rework of beginning.
<Ann> I didn't get the impression the theme or the conflict was
about 'what is human?'
<tamarion> It was about escape, survival, I thought. But not as
strongly as it could have been somehow.
<Ann> It struck me as a straight 'token plot' ... which doesn't
quite work with that opening. 'Token plot' = get the tokens to solve
the puzzles to get out of the trap.
<MargareTZ> Beartrap, yes.
<Ann> That works ... with his betrayal of his military
background getting him into the beartrap!
<tamarion> Seemed as if it was a draft, like it needed to be
worked on more to make more happen maybe.
<MargareTZ> But where is the struggle against the flaw that
keeps the protag from escaping?
<tamarion> Yeah, not enough fight...I guess.
<Ann> It isn't written in, unfortunately.
<MargareTZ> Now, if the What is human were integrated.
<Ann> As the main flaw I saw in the character was his lack of
military bearing and background ... I was wondering why he was
deluded.
<Greg> I did have trouble with the opening as well...I didn't
know what it was though.
<MargareTZ> And protag couldn't accept alien as human...
<Ann> Yes, it would fly then or now.
<Greg> There were also a few words that were alien to me...and
that threw me off...sten and stasis.
<MargareTZ> Then alien could only be sidekick at best.
<Ann> If both main characters, alien and human couldn't accept
it, with the lynch pin being the Yliam.
<MargareTZ> Yes! Needs that balance.
<Ann> Master and Servant is all based on 'what is human?' That
drives the plot down into the reactions of the alien and the human,
rather than getting the tokens to get off the planet.
<Ann> Greg, I brushed over the alien words, waiting for them to
be shown later ... habit from what I normally read, but you are right,
in the style of the era, they should have been left out or explained.
<Robin> One thought that'll get me in trouble with the editors;
I like more "description" rather than less (a visual
thinker).
<Greg> Should the opening have been in the prison....with a
flashback on how he got there?
<Ann> That is how I would have done it ... also to force the
protag into being the first person on stage.
<tamarion> That would have cut to the action Greg, good point
<JL> OK, let's move from the Beginning, character and theme, to
the structural middle and end shown in the summary.
<JL> Given the beginning as written, WHERE should the book end?
<tamarion> The guards attacking the prisoner. Leave folks
hanging to if he will live or not.
<Ann> Barry freeing the aliens because he now sees them as
human.
<tamarion> Or get away...and if Dintar will help or not.
<MargareTZ> I like description too, but today's market wants it
broken up more. Not a matter of less, just smaller bites.
<Robin> Pet peeve: being left hanging on the ending (implied
sequel which never happens).
<tamarion> The others may try to get away too, leaving him, or
wil they try to help. Maybe something important he leaves behind and
has to go back for?
<JL> Robin, part of last week's lecture by Bonnee was about
judging not on your personal taste, but on the taste of the readership
you're editing for -- granted of course that the personal can not and
SHOULD not be wholly deleted from the equation.
<Greg> To tie the ending with the beginning...he must be shown
as human..and a danger to his enemies.
<tamarion> Or someone?
<JL> Very good, Greg.
<tamarion> Oh yeah....very good point. But if he is weak and
sick...how is he a threat?
<JL> So given that beginning and ending -- what should the
MIDDLE be?
<tamarion> Broken-up description..not one big gulp. shower scene
needs something. Some sort of crisis to liven it up.
<JL> BTW you haven't read the BOOK - you've just got the
description of the novel here.
<Greg> The struggle displaying human emotions and
frailties....almost losing to himself and his enemies.
<tamarion> Maybe a discovery within the characters.
<JL> "some sort of crisis to liven it up" -- NEVER
include a crisis to "liven it up" -- it will always come off
'contrived'.
<tamarion> Oh. Well, if it ties in with the story as we are
reading it now...but there seems to be more of something happening
needed in the middle.
<Ann> Getting himself recaptured and nearly killed by the
aliens.
<JL> Greg -- you've nailed it.
<tamarion> Good one Ann. That is kinda what I was saying.
<Ann> For something uniquely human.
<tamarion> Oh yeah. That would bring it 'home' to the reader of
what the problem was.
<JL> Tamarion -- "a discovery within the characters"
would be "out-of-genre" for this kind of market.
<Robin> if ending = human (worthy of humane treatment), middle
must be not-seen-as-human (unworthy as equal, subjugated)
<tamarion> Oh, ok. Just throwing ideas, also so I can learn.
<JL> "Getting himself recaptured and nearly killed by the
aliens" is right IN genre for this type of product.
<Ann> Remember, for this style -action- is everything.
<tamarion> Yeah, action speaks louder than...yeah.
<JL> Yes, Tamarion -- that was an excellent observation for the
class discussion.
<tamarion> I have the problem also of not knowing my market back
then...so puts me at disadvantage.
<Greg> But there cannot be constant action...wouldn't that be
too draining...
<Ann> Not for the genre and the period.
<Greg> Perhaps that is where pacing comes along.
<JL> So we looked at the beginning, evaluated the characters and
action -- deduced what the ending and middle that go with that
beginning would have to be -- NOW, are the ending and middle close
enough to make this a BUY or at least a "pass on to the
purchasing editor" for a slushpile reader?
<tamarion> Remember back then folks didn't have the excitement
overload we do now with puters, video games etc. stories were a large
part of their excitement
<Greg> but what is valuable 'filler'?
<JL> Greg -- the style for the particular genre is CONSTANT
ACTION -- actually two battle scenes and an unarmed combat scene PER
CHAPTER are about the norm.
<tamarion> Anything that makes the story move along, and teaches
reader something, without being obvious or overwhelming, right?
<JL> Very good Tamarion. The 75,000 word action/adventure novel
has no room for one word of filler.
<tamarion> Otherwise reader interest might fade?
<JL> You do the character-development "on the fly" so
to speak -- coding the character within the actions -- the style of
drop-kick, the speed of the combat-ready response -- that's how you
characterize and distinguish the characters.
<Ann> At the time, it would have been a near thing ... possibly
enough to send on to the second round ... with the thinner slushpiles
of the era, I would say a possible yes.
<JL> In a romance you code character in the style of caress,
warmth in the eyes during a glance.
<tamarion> It had potential then...and really could have been
'fixed' then.
<JL> How would you code character in a Fantasy novel about a
magician?
<Ann> When?
<tamarion> Who is the most powerful of the magic-users? What are
their talents in spells?
<Greg> By his dress...his hand and finger movements..the type of
spells cast.
<MargareTZ> Type of magic used, who used for/against.
<tamarion> And what is their goal....and who do they serve, if
lesser wizards?
<JL> Characterization is coded within the character's decisions,
body-language, actions, and reactions.
<MargareTZ> In all, very specific actions.
<Ann> Today, by how he sees his environment, the linkages
between sensual information and memory ... '70s, garb and paraphernalia.
<Robin> Interactions with other characters (turning them all
into toads is a powerful hint on character).
<JL> Excellent point Robin! It is in the actions that you tell
the hero from the villain. OK, we've only touched lightly on CONFLICT
here -- plot and conflict.
<tamarion> Yes. That is true, or cause, sometimes it is the lack
of action as well in situations that can be a clue.
<JL> Let's hear an analysis of this piece on the basis of
CONFLICT and RESOLUTION.
<tamarion> The conflict wasn't urgent enough...in the writing.
<Ann> I'll pass, I couldn't grab the conflict at all ... got too
distracted by the style.
<tamarion> Resolution seemed fake, too easy.
<MargareTZ> Barry's conflict seems mostly external. not
supported enough by external. Dintar has lots of internal but it
doesn't seem to resolve -- Barry's not supported by Internal.
<Greg> Conflict seemed lacking as well for me...I think there
was going to be future conflict though.
<MargareTZ> The last line really irritated me. The "...
good fitting pair of jockey shorts." trivialized the whole thing.
<tamarion> Yeah, Margaret, it didn't fit there. It disrupted the
end.
<Ann> I took that as a part of the outline, not for the final
version.
<Greg> I was unsure if the 'escape' action was planned or an
accident.
<JL> OK, CONFLICT again. The beginning is Barry is dead-meat
under the hands of these alien prison guards. The middle is -- I
forget what it was, does anyone remember?
<tamarion> The shower scene and him eating the yucky food,
<JL> Barry tries to escape and is caught and drug back to the
prison -- right? And the ending is - he escapes. Dintar is a major
complication and becomes an ongoing complication.
<Greg> Sliding down the cable is the end...escaping is not
known.
<tamarion> Point made, you aren't sure they will get away.
<JL> OK.
<Ann> Thanks JL, I couldn't get to that level, kept snagging on
the fact he -should- have been trying to free those who might have
been captured with him or at least find them.
<JL> That's the COMPLICATION Ann.
<Ann> I know, but I kept tripping on it, because I couldn't get
past his calling himself a captain.
<JL> OK, good Ann.
<tamarion> He didn't 'feel' the part.
<JL> That brings up an important point that Bonnee made last
week. How much of your 'tripping on it' and 'can't get past this or
that' -- is personal taste, and how much objective judgment?
<Robin> <Guilty!!>
<JL> Would other readers react the same way as you have?
<MargareTZ> Captain does not necessarily imply humanitarian.
<tamarion> I guess it is because you are set up to expect
something and it does not happen, or characters don't behave as you
think they should.
<JL> That's the question the editor has to address.
<Ann> That is why I would have given it a tentative pass for the
era and genre.
<JL> The objective here is not to 'get the right answer' but to
hone the skills of objective judgment on another's MS so you can turn
them onto your own.
<Ann> Captain does imply loyalty to hir crew and a code of
behavior Barry never showed, even once and often violated.
<MargareTZ> To you it does, Ann, but to others it might be just
the opposite.
<JL> And do you suppose his behavior was a "plant" to
foreshadow something? Or was it inept writing?
<Greg> And being objective can be difficult because we may be
reading/editing material we would not normally buy/like.
<MargareTZ> Crew as tools and interchangeable parts.
<JL> Good point Greg -- to make a living at editing, one must be
able to apply objective criteria and know when and how much PERSONAL
to add in.
<tamarion> Yes Greg. True. I thought she needed to make his
character 'seem' more captain-like...probably my own personal judgment.
<JL> The key is knowing WHERE FROM INSIDE YOURSELF your personal
reaction comes.
<tamarion> If it is a 'gut-feeling' is that personal more than
reaction to what is actually in the story?
<Robin> Capt. Loyal but does not so behave / crew as
(disposable) tools...is a character statement. Does the rest of the
story support that?
<Greg> I don't know if I can answer the behavior
question...without reading more of the story.
<Ann> It is so hard to tell in this piece, because the POV was
indeterminate. I would say, as it was external third, it could have
gone either way.
<JL> Both the writer and the editor have to learn to analyze
that "gut feeling" to know precisely what causes it and how
and why.
<tamarion> That is hard for this newbie, but I see what you are
saying JL.
<Greg> Is the issue of captain one of clarity...because we each
have our ideas how a captain should behave?
<Ann> I would say, with a much tighter beginning, this could
have done very well at the time it was written for ... right after
Vietnam, the issue about the Captain would have been far better taken.
<tamarion> If he is a 'bad' character, he would be doing just as
he should be doing.
<JL> OK, bottom line on the analysis of this piece? Flat
rejection -- invitation to submit something else -- ask to see the
whole MS -- which would you folks select?
<Greg> At the end of chpt one...I did want to read more, so my
interest was captured.
<tamarion> I would say to see the whole MS.
<Ann> I would ask for a rewrite, to tighten up the beginning.
<tamarion> See if it can be changed enough and what happens.
<Greg> I agree with tamarion.
<JL> Ann -- it isn't the norm to ask for a rewrite without
seeing the whole manuscript.
<MargareTZ> I would want to see the rest.
<tamarion> There is potential if changes are made.
<Ann> Oops ... sorry, then I would ask to see the rest with an
eye towards possible acceptance after work.
<tamarion> The synopsis of the other chapters showed good ideas
as well
<JL> That's it, Ann. Now, having seen the BEGINNING -- and FROM
THAT BEGINNING derived in your mind what the middle and end had to be
-- you would then be able to examine the whole manuscript LOOKING FOR
those elements.
<tamarion> It would be a shame to give up on it without seeing
what she'd done.
<JL> Suppose the submission came and, and you flipped through it
and found the escape-attempt scene that should be the MIDDLE but it
was 15% of the way PAST the middle -- what would you do?
<tamarion> And if not found, then have her change the beginning
to reflect what is actually said in the MS. I would say to move it
'back' a bit.
<JL> Greg? What would you do? No, Tamarion --
"move" is the wrong technical term.
<MargareTZ> Ask writer to tighten up first half.
<Ann> Then, put it in the notes for fix on rewrite.
<JL> Good, but I'm looking for a jargon-term here.
buzzword
<Greg> I am not sure if fixing one problem would create another.
<JL> What is the source of the problem if the middle happens too
late?
<tamarion> Too much beginning, right?
<JL> Good, Greg -- it isn't the editor's business to be all that
sure of HOW to fix problems.
<JL> No, Tamarion. Keep going.
<Robin> Pacing?
<MargareTZ> Pacing?
<JL> RIGHT ROBIN!!! Yes, I know you had it Tamarion but needed
the JARGON TERM. Writers need to know these terms because an editor will throw
them at you sometimes without mercy.
<Greg> Is that pacing or plotting though??
<Ann> Actually this is from the Essence of Story class ... this
kind of construction is no longer used in SF/F.
<JL> OK, so the editor sends the MS back, notes the problems
with description-blocks (which is also a PACING problem) and that the
Middle is off-center, and asks for the pacing to be "speeded
up" -- now the book is exactly 75,000 words already, and to
adjust the pacing will mean taking words out, but the publication
requires 75,000 words -- stuff has to be ADDED. What will the
editor ask be added?
<Ann> At least not to this extreme.
<MargareTZ> Oh? Just add braiding for today.
<JL> True, Military SF no longer sells well in books - but this
is the absolute key core to selling to TV right now.
<Ann> LOL! JL, Weber is one of the hottest writers in SF right
now
<JL> And Ann, I beg to differ, but I've read a number of
published sf/f novels lately that fit this formula precisely.
<MargareTZ> Bujold seems to be doing ok. Drake, Moon, etc.
<Ann> Stirling ... read 'em all and love 'em.
<JL> Yes, BIG NAMES to be sure -- Big Names always sell -- but
they aren't selling as many copies of each novel, and the trend is
DOWN not up.
<Robin> Back to question - if Beginning too fat, 3/4 point was
probably too thin. Add there.
<Ann> I'm not sure at the time what would be added, I, myself,
add extra scenes to fill out the background.
<MargareTZ> and Bujold and Moon stress character growth.
<JL> Robin -- YES!!! Right again. You ask for a scene to be
added at a certain point later on --
<tamarion> I like clarification of the characters, who they are,
like a puzzle being re-worked.
<JL> The editor may ask for cuts at one point and additions at
another.
<Greg> Perhaps a conflict was edited out by the author...and now
can be worked back in?
<JL> Ann -- "sells well" means almost anything you
market in a genre will be scarfed up by one or another publisher.
At the moment, it's harder to sell straight military sf than it's
become to sell Vampire. Both will come back -- don't worry about that.
GREG -- EXCELLENT !!! Yes, sub-plots and other conflicts can be
suggested by an editor (or agent). So I think that wraps it up for
this week. Watch WorldCrafters-L for more.
Session Close: Sun Mar 12 04:44:50 2000
