Chatlog of Class # 10 for Editing the Novel

Come to Class Sunday, 3PM Eastern Time (USA) when announced in WorldCrafters-L

Teacher: <JL>= Jacqueline Lichtenberg; Moderator, <Karen>= Karen Litman, Students: <MargareTZ> = Margaret I. Carr, <GregA>= Greg Anderson, <AnnMarie> = Ann Marie Olson,

This is the classroom's channel log. Read also simultaneous comments among participants in the #chat channel.

<JL> Bonnee isn't here yet.
<Jocelyn> Thanks!
<JL> Greg -- what did you get out of the LAUREL K. HAMILTON
<GregA> stay away from vampires:)
<JL> That's a good moral, but you know what I meant! About the use of First Person.
<GregA> I really don't like it as a reader
<JL> Good - those are the best books to study.
<GregA> I read 'I'...but I know it is not 'I'
<JL> OK, you found there was a significantly different impact on READER IDENTIFICATION with the characters, then?
<GregA> this..and Angela's Ashes are the only ones I have read in first person...and I don't care for it at all
<JL> OK, and that's a matter of artistic taste, and perfectly valid.
<GregA> yes...I feel more a part of the story in third person
<GregA> there is one other thing in the book
<JL> But this is a course on editing, which means you must develop an understanding of what makes a book have that illusive thing called "quality" --
<GregA> at the start she talks about helping in finding out about fires
<GregA> and then there is no other mention of it
<JL> aha, you found an editing glitch
<GregA> I am almost half way through
<GregA> so it may come up
<JL> But you're looking for it.
<GregA> but there is too much without any reference to it
<JL> And you're right, by the halfway point, if that element was to be important to the ending, it should have been mentioned again by the halfway point.
<JL> OK, AnnMarie!
<JL> What did you make of the Hamilton book?
<AnnMarie> The way she uses voice in narrative compared to other authors who use first
<AnnMarie> She goes far more into the character
<AnnMarie> insofar as word choice
<JL> She uses the grammatical "person" to characterize.
<JL> Greg felt that this gave a distance from the character -- do you feel that?
<AnnMarie> It does to a certain extent because I always have a bit of wonder to -why- the author is telling me this story
<AnnMarie> At least when the author, like Hamilton, doesn't explain it
<JL> Was there anything else that you noticed about the book?
<AnnMarie> The pacing and how she controlled it though grammar, particularly sentence fragments and slang
<JL> That's good - yes, it's one of her most practiced tools.
<JL> Overall that's called STYLE - and is personal and quirky.
<JL> N`omi -- what did you notice about this Hamilton novel -- or have you read it?
<N`omi> yes, I read it..
<JL> Tell us what you learned.
<N`omi> I noticed that I must be learning more than I thought.. because I kept getting jerked out of the story with various errors
<N`omi> story
<JL> Aha -- you found your perspective changing from READER to EDITOR!!!! What a triumph. I wish Bonnee were here.
<Karen> N'omi.... I haven't read the works in question, but that's a sign of learning editing.
<N`omi> really>> kewl! thank you both!!
<JL> Good, was there anything else you noticed?
<N`omi> I wish I had kept a log of what I was finding.. but sigh, I did not. I will next time, though
<JL> This was an exercise in learning FIRST PERSON narrative. Did you attempt a narrative of your own?
<N`omi> I noticed problems with some of the shifts of tense
<JL> The BLUE PENCIL syndrome! Yes, we generally read with pen in hand making marks all over the page.
<N`omi> not yet, I fear I am woefully behind
<N`omi> ahh, so that is how to do it! Thank you!
<N`omi> in the first person.. it was hard to keep track of all the players
<JL> Most writers can't read without a pen in hand.
* Karen nods, I tend to read anything as an editor now, rather than a reader. A problem since editing CZ in 1978. I've never learned how not to be critical like that.
<JL> OK, you learned that INFORMATION FEED is much harder in First Person, even by an expert in the POV.
* N`omi is already getting itchy fingers when she is trying to read for fun!
<N`omi> yes! that was the term, Jl!
<JL> So this course and this exercise mark a pivot point of progress in your development.
<N`omi> yes, it did!
<JL> Good -- now do you all recall last week's discussion with Bonnee where we concluded that information feed is very difficult in First Person?
<N`omi> yes, I do! *now*!
<JL> And that the choice of PERSON allows the writer to control the depth of reader-identification with the character?
<JL> MargareTZ -- ok, what did you learn?
<N`omi> yes.. though I often enjoy first person.. I did not enjoy it in this book
<N`omi> oops, sorry
<GregA> I don't think I would write in first person unless I was telling a story about myself
<JL> Good point Greg!
<MargareTZ> I like 1st when it is well done and I like the character
<JL> How do you assess Hamilton's First Person style?
<MargareTZ> or if it is good oral interpretation material like Poe's "Telltale Heart"
<MargareTZ> but the little Hamilton I read I didn't take to the character at all
<JL> Which makes it easier to learn from.
<JL> Did you try to write a 1st Person piece?
<MargareTZ> and I certainly would never try reading it to an audience
<GregA> I do like the character...a mix of emotions and strengths
<MargareTZ> still stalled
<MargareTZ> I do it all the time in non-fiction but don't do it well in fiction
<JL> In other words, Margaret, you tried, but couldn't get through writing a short piece.
<JL> OK, Jocelyn -- what did you learn?
<Jocelyn> I didn't read the book. But I don't usually find first person good for long works.
<JL> Ok, from reading experience you find that 1st is very hard to sustain.
<JL> Any idea why that could be?
<JL> Actually, thank you for saying that! It leads back to Greg's observation that I wanted to discuss in more depth.
<Jocelyn> I suffer from boredom. Looking through one set of eyes won't let me draw my own conclusions.
<JL> EXCELLENT!!!!
<JL> That's exactly my point.
<JL> OK, 1ST person is someone you don't know telling you a story.
<JL> It's you sitting in an audience chair watching one actor on a limbo set on the stage telling a story about things that aren't here and now.
<JL> You have a FILTER between you and the events, and that filter is the unconscious assumption set of the story-teller (not the author, the I-character).
<JL> Greg -- does that sum up what you were talking about -- not identifying with the character?
<GregA> yes it does...exactly...I am not the I that I am reading...
<JL> We have trained ourselves via the prevalence of 3rd person narratives to make that leap into the character's life and story -- to become the "he" or "she" -- even though grammatically the word means "not me".
<JL> It is reader-habit, and that's something a purchasing editor violates at peril of job and livelihood.
<GregA> I feel I am an outsider looking in and not a part of the action
<JL> OK, folks -- now let's have-at Greg since his was the only person who got the homework to me in time to post before this session.
<JL> (I will get AnnMarie's up soon, and announce that in WorldCrafters-L)
<AnnMarie> I could see some awkwardness in the unfamiliar form, but it improved a great deal towards the end
<JL> Good, AnnMarie - anything else?
<AnnMarie> The sensory reactions were very well done
<AnnMarie> That is the strength of 1st
<MargareTZ> I thought he set up a good potential conflict between the life the character led and discovering there could be more
<MargareTZ> I was a bit upset when he killed the 'hero' off
<JL> Good, MargareTZ -- yes, but the problem is that the conflict is POTENTIAL.
<AnnMarie> The primary problem I had was too much stuff for the length of the piece
<MargareTZ> yes, killing the hero before he can deal with the conflict
<JL> Yes, Greg is still over-compressing his emotions. That's a subject for a course on the art of writing, not the mechanics.
<JL> What I found is that it was intense and gripping at the beginning and fell apart just before the middle -- and the reason for that is a total LACK OF CONFLICT. It is all potential, all TOLD not SHOWN. Conflict is to be shown not told.
<JL> The piece does have more ACTION than Greg usually brings in -- which I thought was an interesting change in style.
<MargareTZ> he was showing the action. keeping it all external
<JL> All the writers we discussed last week who were models for 1st Person were action-hero types.
<MargareTZ> hiding from the emotional?
<AnnMarie> Mostly I chalked it up to the attempt to cram too much stuff into too little space
<JL> So it's natural to try your hand at that genre. And I thought it worked splendidly up to the point where there should have been a break-away from setting the scene into letting the scene move.
<JL> Yes, AnnMarie that's one basic cause of this effect. But there are other sources.
<JL> As he mentioned, 1st tends to distance the reader from the character in an odd way -- unless the reader makes that leap to become "I" -- (which I often do when reading the Hamilton novels)
<JL> Let me see if I can find where Greg's attempt flagged.
<GregA> How was the transition from the card table...to the previous night...and then back?
<JL> I was sitting with a full house, assured the pot would be sliding in my direction.
<JL> Pilots love to play games and I was no exception.
<MargareTZ> from was a bit slow
<JL> Between those two sentences is where the mistake is.
<JL> Yes, Greg you nailed it.
<JL> OK, and then there's the section about the girl he met last night.
<JL> That's all FLASHBACK. It should be current-time and told straight.
<JL> Now, the CONFLICT should be (I was expecting from the setup in the first few paragraphs) between him and this girl he met.
<JL> Unknown to him, she turns out to be a rival fighter pilot.
<JL> Or a spy -- or SOMETHING -- that affects the mission he's about to fly.
<JL> Between those two sentences is where the KLAXONS have to blare and they all scramble.
<GregA> she is the one who took away his edge
<AnnMarie> Too long, JL ... I was thinking more to remove the card game and do the flash back as he enters the plane to tie it all together
<JL> FLASHBACK is not a technique that's of real use in a piece this size.
<GregA> that's true AnnMarie...especially in a short piece like this
<JL> It KILLS the forward motion of the story.
<AnnMarie> Start with the klaxon
<JL> (or it usually does.
<GregA> what do you mean...That's all FLASHBACK. It should be current-time and told straight.
<JL> Greg habitually SETS THE SCENE -- and keeps on SETTING THE SCENE -- and never switches to MOVING THE SCENE FORWARD. That's a stylistic SWITCH and he has to learn to make it in the right place.
<JL> In this piece, the right place is between those two sentences.
<AnnMarie> What I would have done is do the scene about the woman ... and show his hand slip on the rail as he wool gathers
<JL> The MEETING THE GIRL should be told in regular narrative.
<JL> Yes, AnnMarie -- yes! Focus on the WOMAN through his eyes, and create a conflict line between the man and the woman (the only two people in the piece).
<AnnMarie> I would have used the flashback as the conflict
<AnnMarie> His distraction with her is what gets him killed ... the flashback is the flaw
<JL> AnnMarie is a born novelist --what can I say. I'm NOT a short story writer, no how, no way!
<JL> AnnMarie is talking about CONTENT here -- and I'm talking about what an editor would see that would cause them to toss this MS.
<JL> If the story doesn't start to move forward between those two sentences -- the slushpile reader won't read any further.
<JL> The formula requires story movement at that particular point.
<JL> It's Greg's ONLY real weak spot in his skills.
<AnnMarie> Actually in ultra shorts there is a touch more latitude, most magazines are desperate for under 2K
<JL> All right, Greg -- now you get to defend yourself if you like.
<GregA> no. I appreciate the comments...and see where the action should have been
<JL> OK, now this is a different course from Essence of Story -- so HERE you can rewrite if you want to, after having been grilled.
<JL> Which brings me (it's almost 4pm!) to the other point I wanted to present here.
<GregA> I might start with the boy and girl together. no flashback
<MargareTZ> good, boy meets girl
<AnnMarie> Remember, you have no time ... what is the conflict?
<GregA> she shows him a side of himself that conflicts...a fighter pilot with an attitude ..and one who learns to care for the feelings of others
<AnnMarie> Too long
<JL> I did a review of a novel in ARC (Advance Reading Copy) from Awe-Struck E-Books and that review is posted -- and I sent it to the author via the publisher, and asked if the author would verify my guesses about where the flaws came from. She wrote back and did so -- and has now completely rewritten the book and retitled it with the title I suggested. Her comments are posted linked to the review. AND NOW we have permission to post that whole ARC which you will
<MargareTZ> what does he want that she opposes?
<JL> then be able to compare to the FINISHED version in July.
<GregA> to separate himself from when he is in the plane to when he is out of it
<AnnMarie> There we
<JL> Keep going Greg.
<AnnMarie> There we go
<GregA> she wants him to separate his feelings...he has not lived that way
<AnnMarie> Too long
<AnnMarie> Particularly with killing him at the end
<GregA> he needs to feel in control..to harness his feelings...
<MargareTZ> is she anti-military?
<AnnMarie> Yes, and she broke that part of him
<GregA> no...she wants him to see the kindness he has...in the air he is ruthless..on the ground he has been ruthless..but he shouldn't be
<AnnMarie> That is what needs to be shown in the scene with her then
<GregA> and he should live...
<AnnMarie> Actually for an ultrashort, it works well with him being killed
<AnnMarie> Basically, you have three very short scenes to play with ... set up, show why, finish.
<GregA> I don't think so...it is too ironic for him to find his gentler self..and then get killed
<GregA> I don't think the readers would like that
<AnnMarie> That's what sells ultrashorts ... think O'Henry
<GregA> chocolate bars?
<MargareTZ> he comes close, rejects it, then is distracted by wondering if he threw away the best part?
<AnnMarie> The short story writer ... wrote Gift of the Magi
<AnnMarie> His finding his gentler self is what gets him killed ... nail the conflict ... don't whiff it <grin>
<GregA> true...but I wonder if he would be thinking anything but saving his butt in the air
<GregA> it all happens so fast
<AnnMarie> That's your conflict
<MargareTZ> a second's distraction would be all it took
<AnnMarie> He doesn't think fast enough because he's distracted
<GregA> yes...not much of a romance to have him killed off though
<AnnMarie> Nope, but then romances don't work well in this format
<MargareTZ> no, I really had a hard time with that
<GregA> maybe the ejection seat works...he still get shot
<AnnMarie> Then it would be a great intro to a longer story ... but less likely to sell
<JL> This is very potent material Greg -- a gigantic life-epiphany. A short-short can indeed focus tightly on that one pivotal moment in a person's life.
<JL> OK, you want to take a stab at rewriting it -- which will be posted linked to this log so there's another example of a writer taking editorial direction?
<GregA> perhaps she is not a real person...she could be a part of a dream he had the night before
<AnnMarie> That would work beautifully
<JL> Or he could be recruited into the Angel corps and we have a fantasy.
<GregA> Touched by an Angel?
<JL> Right!
<AnnMarie> Even though as it stands, a very ironic short ... it could probably sell to mainstream
<JL> But Greg, do you see what your subconscious just did?
<JL> It's that trick I'm going to try to beat out of you in these courses.
<GregA> his time is up for paying for past sins
<JL> You SOLVED the conflict by having the conflict DISAPPEAR.
<JL> You made her A DREAM -- but she's the other pole he's in conflict WITH.
<JL> She has to be -- or there's no point having her in the story.
<JL> You have to learn to recognize that little inner voice that presents those kinds of solutions as leading you astray every time.
<JL> I saw this happen time and again in your ESSENCE OF STORY homework.
<GregA> that little voice speaks in code...I just have to break the code now:)
<JL> Put them nose-to-nose and FORCE them to stay there until they resolve the CONFLICT.
<AnnMarie> Respectfully, JL, that is why you don't do shorts
<JL> Do that often enough in these practices and you'll learn to recognize that OTHER voice that's leading you to publishability.
<MargareTZ> but that is ideal short, AnnMarie
<MargareTZ> all the excess trimmed off
<GregA> so...I am moving the scenes but not the story..is that the sum?
<AnnMarie> That his conflict kills him
<JL> I'm less interested in producing a viable piece of work here than I am in teaching Greg to recognize when something is RIGHT. And that ability to recognize the RIGHTNESS of a piece is the editor's skill.
<AnnMarie> Actually you are doing far better on moving the scenes, Greg ... it is tying them together
<JL> That's the sum, Greg.
<JL> Oh, yes, AnnMarie - Greg has come LIGHTYEARS from where he started. He's making amazing progress.
<JL> This is really hard stuff to learn because English doesn't have any words for these mental processes.
<JL> But Greg is right -- he's learning to decode those little voices.
<JL> So let's see if you can MOVE that story from point A to B to C in this ultra-short stripped form.
<JL> Now that it's been discussed a little, it should free up some more room for thinking about it, and tomorrow you'll have more ideas for what to do with it.
<GregA> ok...I think the string is the conflict...and my string is in pieces
<Karen> If I can say something: Editing includes trying to figure what the author is trying to tell, and how best to get that story out with HIS words and work, yet your insight to help him move toward the goal of telling the story he wants.
<GregA> I just have to join the string in a line
<JL> Also, for this re-write, let me UP the stakes and say you don't have to stick with First Person.
<AnnMarie> Exactly
<JL> Give yourself some elbow room and focus down hard on getting the story to MOVE to a conclusion.
<MargareTZ> and if you do stay with first, it doesn't require the hero to 'tell all'
<JL> I want to see the results of this exercise show up in your first post to the Editing Circle we're still working on launching.
<GregA> ok...that will be excellent practice
<JL> Yes, Margaret!!!
<GregA> commenting on my piece is so useful to me...thank you all
<JL> Here's the URL for the review and the author commentary -- and soon you will be able to read the ARC the review came from -- and in July the novel that came from that editorial commentary.
<AnnMarie> You are quite welcome Greg ... both sides of the commentary fence are quite useful to a writer
<JL> http://www.simegen.com/reviews/rereadablebooks/columns/AfficionadoMay2000.html
<AnnMarie> I appreciate the chance to get to comment as well
<AnnMarie> Particularly for a piece which does have a conflict and a plot
<JL> AnnMarie, I'll have yours up -- not tomorrow -- got mundane stuff tomorrow -- by the end of the week, though I expect.
<AnnMarie> No hoo-hah
<JL> Since we don't know why Bonnee wasn't here today, we don't know what's happening next Sunday.
<JL> We'll announce that in WorldCrafters-L -- we're almost done with this course, but we have ONE MORE subject we must cover.
<MargareTZ> ?
<JL> We have to get into "How do you get a job as an editor?" and what are the credentials to become an editor.
<JL> What it pays, what the career prospects are.
* Karen smiles. I have the credentials, but not the job. **sigh**
<JL> All that stuff that's of very little interest to writers -- until they learn all about it and then suddenly the EYES are OPENED to what they're up against when it comes to selling a novel.
<JL> Knowing what an editor's business-life is like is a vital part of selling a manuscript and negotiating contracts, and taking editorial direction - knowing when to fight and when NOT to.
<JL> We have one student here who has become seriously interested in founding a career in editing, so Bonnee's remarks on this subject will be important.
<JL> I hope we can have in our chat-program a few guests who are editors.
<Karen> We've started writers on careers before, why not editors?
<JL> Yes, I am hoping to launch some working editors here -- the e-scene really needs more as good as Bonnee and Kathryn.
<MargareTZ> Kathryn???
<JL> Kathryn D. Struck the editor at Awe-Struck E-Books whose work is so superb, and who let this new author re-write her book after seeing my review tear it apart at the scars.
<MargareTZ> ah
<JL> These two know their STUFF -- and I suspect there are a few others out there who do -- but there is work for many many more.
* N`omi puts in her votes for Editors of different styles..like SF for example
<MargareTZ> and short stories and poetry and articles
<Karen> I learned to edit on Sime~Gen, but I also edit other things now.
<N`omi> yes!!
<JL> Actually, the job of editing is about the same regardless of the genre -- BUT expertise and an affinity for a genre is (in my opinion) essential. Manhattan has never thought so.
<JL> Most editors in Manhattan are English graduates who couldn't get any other job -- they walk in the first day and are sent to edit a STACK of romances or westerns or sf (or all 3) without any instructions at all.
<MargareTZ> sometimes not available though
<JL> They work their way up from there by seat of the pants and teach-yourself. That's why the good ones don't usually know how they do what they do -- they just do what they LIKE. But they have the job because their guesses SELL WELL.
<Karen> You have to know what to look for, and work at the editing craft.
<MargareTZ> and working with writers is a large part of it
<JL> The writers that get worked with are those that give the editor the least TROUBLE.
<JL> That's why writers need to know a lot about the editor's job.
<Karen> Exactly!!
<MargareTZ> the writers who want to improve are worth working with
<Karen> oh yes, Margaret.... and I've had people become pro writers from starting with A COMPANION IN ZEOR
<JL> MargareTZ -- remember last week. The writers who are worth working with are NOT the ones who want to improve -- they are the ones who already have command of POV. Remember that.
<MargareTZ> for books, pretty much has to be
<Greg> I have to run...thanks for the class and enjoy your week...
<AnnMarie> See you Greg, and hope to hear from you
<N`omi> hello?? is this the end.. shall I cut the log off now?
<JL> Yes, that ends this LOG -- thank you N`omi.
<N`omi> thank you JL!
Session Close
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