Sime~Gen™ Inc. New Years Chat - 2011

This is a record of the informal chat among Sime~Gen participants, going on in a separate chatroom, concurrent with the formal business meeting.

The business meeting was called to order, proceeded through the agenda, and was formally adjourned.

This discussion flowed on in the background, before, during and after the meeting.

ATTENDEES:

irc_name -- 'real' name
<JL`> -- Jacqueline Lichtenberg
<Karen> - Karen MacLeod
<MTZ> - Margaret I Carr
<Seanara> - Seanara Coyote
<Margaret> - Margaret Carter

I've joined a group C. J. Cherryh invited me into of mass market writers who have been retrieving their rights and issuing their OWN e-book editions. I did that for DUSHAU TRILOGY and I did an omnibus version of HERO and BORDER DISPUTE -- all only on Amazon and only in Kindle format (which now can be read by almost any e-book reader.) This is a really impressive group of writers and they are selling their own books by the hundreds (I haven't gotten there yet). They have an Amazon store. http://backlistebooks.com should be right. Check it.

<MTZ> Ah, JL, Kindle format means only Kindle, iPad, smartphones. There are lots of other readers, the new ones mostly some flavor of epub.
<jl> Amazon is making "aps" available for almost every electronic screen -- one at a time, but that's the strategy.
<MTZ> Yep, backlist books is a great idea!
<MTZ> Hi Seanara
<jl> Well over 40 writers so far, and all helping each other figure out how to pub and promo their own books. Hi Seanara
<Seanara> Hi everyone. JL, I heard you weren't feeling well. Sorry to hear that; hope your flu clears up soon.
<Karen> The problem with only e-pubbing is those of us who can't grab on to an e-reader are left out of the loop. For me, finances is the problem.
<jl> Yeah, I'm sick - so I may just leave early, but Jean will be late.
<MTZ> I've been thinking about a class for the layout and format side of publishing, for authors and potential publishers.
<jl> Yes, a lot of people can't learn from just reading convoluted technie directions.
<Karen> THAT is something even editors would want. I have many clients that ask me to format their books. I'm not that skilled at it, and only learned one way when I was with NBI.
<jl> These writers are SMART - but many are older (after all they have BACK LIST BOOKS) and hire someone to e-book their text.
<Karen> I probably could make some extra money if I really knew how to do that.
<MTZ> Well, want to be my first guinea pig?
<Seanara> I'd say go for it, Karen. You learn techie stuff much quicker than I do.
<Karen> The easier the better. If Margaret offers such a class, somehow I'd find a way to take it. I'll give it a go if you like, Margaret. We can both invest in the idea... and see how it flies.
<MTZ> Still developing it, Karen, and I do need an alpha tester.
<jl> Wildside does an Adobe pdf from the doc text, but that creates spurious odd typos that need scrubbing. But after that, the Adobe (brand new Adobe software) creates a file that easily converts to all the other e-book formats. Wildside says fictionwise.com is still their biggest outlet.
* Karen raises hand. "I'll do it. Don't know WHY, but no reason why not." <grin>
<MTZ> okay, do you have my Juno email? (lost my contacts when desktop melted down) if I remember correctly you do have some version of Word?
<Karen> I think I can find your e-dress. I would need to invest in the new Adobe complete if necessary... mine is old and not installed. Right now, Word 2000 is all I have on this "new" laptop... which is several years old.
<MTZ> Adobe not necessary
<Karen> OK, JL it is now 3 p.m. EST... open the meeting to the few here?
<MTZ> Most of the software I'll recommend is free
<Karen> Best price is free.... especially on my budget. Let's give this idea a try.
<MTZ> The only one that costs ($35.00) is Altlantis.
<jl> Yes, we should get started but I just have no energy.
<Karen> Should be able to scrape that up....
<MTZ> Great!
<Karen> Want me to chair the meeting in the other room, then?
<MTZ> Oh, I'll get it for you when we get to that point
<Karen> We can talk about it when I learn to that point. <appreciative>
<jl> Karen - yes, please chair the meeting in the moderated Annual Business Meeting chatroom
<Karen> You're up, JL, unless you want me to post your president's report.
<jl> looking for it. No brain function.
<Karen> OK, I can start it...
<Seanara> ~~soothing warmth~~ for JL
<jl> I need a second
<Karen> I took off moderation... can always add it later.
<jl> We need to work down to business.
<Seanara> k... with just these few of us, I doubt it's really necessary.
<MTZ> Thanks, Karen
<jl> Someone second my motion
<Seanara> Moderation, I mean. Karen did.
<Karen> I can post your report, JL.... just say so. I have it open and waiting.
<jl> Karen - call for in favor aye. Karen - as chair you have to call for the vote -- "all in favor say aye"
<Karen> Been AGES since I charged any meeting.
<Seanara> Hooray on the new contracts. I hope we will see The Farris Channel soon. YEE-HAW!
<MTZ> Personal Recognizance??? There's a book I don't have??
<Seanara> Borgo books will be available in tree format on Amazon.com, right?
<Karen> Looks like we have a WAIT for the new ones.... that's one of the NEW ONES Margaret.
<MTZ> Whew
<Karen> I edited PR several years ago.
<MTZ> Want! want! want!
<Seanara> Ditto here. I second the want! want! want!
<Karen> PAPER copies.... got lots of friends that want paper... I have 3 sold other than my copy I can think of.
<Seanara> Good. I can't curl up in bed with my desktop computer. Especially as it's been sick lately.
<MTZ> Sigh, would like paper but don't have room
<jl> I'm fading fast here, no brain cells operating. Let's move on to announcing the stock awards for last year.
<Karen> I can post your stock report if you want.I don't WANT to curl up with my laptop, though I can do it. Would rather have paper books.
<MTZ> There's a kind of clunky orphan that K-Mart had, Augen's The Book, that might be available used or reconditioned reasonably not e-ink, epub format
<Karen> I like paper.... so no e-reader for me just yet. Server was sick most of the past 6 months. Overly spammed so it murdered the lists and some other things.
<MTZ> Eventually you'll either need one or a group of testers who have them, if you want to do conversions for hire but for now there are pc versions
* Karen nods. "A PC I have."
<jl> OK, Karen -- I'm going to go crash.
<MTZ> take care, JL
<Seanara> Be well soon, JL.
<MTZ> good to 'see' you again
<Karen> GET WELL. Will send you the rough logs when we're outta here.
<jl> Thanks for coming.
<Seanara> Gentle virtual hugs, JL
<jl> Next year may be even more exciting. Bye
<Seanara> bye
<Karen> bye
<MTZ> Sad so few came this year
<Seanara> It's a great pity. I was kind of afraid that would be the case.
<Karen> Hard for anyone to come when the lists are down, and all we can contact is via Facebook and other social media. Very few e-mailed me.
<Seanara> Nod. And not everyone is on Facebook or other social media. I'm not.
<Karen> The fact that it is January 2, because of the Sabbath also messed things up.
<MTZ> I searched the site to get the time
<Karen> It was up on the blog/newsletter, but few people know of the blog.
<Seanara> Well, there's a whole year before the next meeting, so all kinds of things can happen in a year.
<MTZ> Yep
<Seanara> I don't know of the blog, although Karen might have told me and I forgot.
<MTZ> Sure hope this year is a better one than last!
<Seanara> Same here. Can we close before Jean gets here? Motion has to be seconded...
<Karen> I did tell you, Seanara of the blog. http://whatsnew.simegen.com
<Seanara> Oh. OK. Now Karen can say "all in favor" and we vote... If we want to close before Jean gets here. Can we re-open the meeting if she arrives and has something to say?
<Karen> Sure, if you want to sit here and wait for Jean, I don't mind. All the S~G news JL already provided that I know about...
<Seanara> I don't mind as long as my computer doesn't disconnect. It's been doing that lately after only a couple of hours.
<Karen> Feel free to stay for awhile, then.
* Seanara nods. "Can we adjourn the meeting and re-start it if Jean comes in?"
<Karen> Look what I wrote in the business chat.
<Seanara> k... do we have to vote?
<Seanara> Hi Margaret -- are you also MTZ or are you two different people?
<Margaret> Yikes, I got booted. I'm MTZ
* Seanara smiles.
<Karen> You can wait for Jean as long as you like. I'm going to wait for a reasonable time... whatever that may be if my behind agrees to the hard desk chair.
<Seanara> Same here... I can wait for another hour or so, I think.
<Margaret> Lol, mine is padded but it gets thin after a while
* Karen laughs.
<Seanara> Know what you mean.
<Margaret> Jean's been pretty busy recently, I suspect.
<Seanara> Is Dudley still well? He must be getting on to venerable old cat-age.
<Margaret> Oh, no! But then how old was he when she adopted him
<Karen> I got an e-mail from her last night saying she'd be late. Doing pet therapy and checking on a friend's cat as the friend is away. I haven't heard anything about Dudley's health... I had a cat live to be 18, so you never know.
<Margaret> Indoor cats often live well into the teens, some make 20 or so
<Seanara> A dear friend of mine had a cat who lived past 20, I think. I forget how old Whiskers was when she crossed -- she was partly or mostly Siamese.
<Karen> Most of Jean's pets have had long lives. She had Soolin, her other cat for many years...before I met Jean.
<Margaret> Sigh, none of mine have made 20 yet, but several were happy teens
* Seanara nods.
<Karen> Some of mine crossed over early in their lives, not even making it to ten, but they had hidden health issues.
<Margaret> Yes, that happens. My Bitsie was born with an enlarged heart. She didn't make it to 10, but they were good years.
<Karen> I take my cats to the vet at least once a year. One had a bad heart, undiagnosed, and another had polycystic kidney disease because her mother was part Persian.
<Margaret> A good vet can make a big difference.
<Karen> I've always seemed to find a good vet. Rats! for some reason this installation of mIRC won't let me do private. Karen, you can edit out stuff, right, before posting?
<Seanara> Mine won't let me do it either.
<Karen> Yes, I can edit out...
<Margaret> Not that I don't trust anyone here. Just didn't want email address in log
<Seanara> Perfectly understood.
<Margaret> Thanks, the dcc from Karen worked fine.
<Seanara> And it worked fine for me when Karen DCCd me, but I can't DCC anyone else.
<Karen> Yeah, that's strange. I have no clue why it does that. I think I'll close those DCC windows now.
<Seanara> k...
<Margaret> Yes, good.
<Karen> Done.
<Margaret> Actually, the pub stuff could be discussed here fine, if others are interested. Hmm, guess Seanara is the only other.
<Karen> Sure, discuss it with Seanara.
<Seanara> I don't mind. Whatever you'd like to discuss. I have trouble understanding the tech stuff, but NP.
<Margaret> The first part is actually more philosophy
* Karen listens.
<Margaret> For a long time publishers haven't sold to readers. They've sold to chain buyers, big box stores, some independent bookstores. Now, we have the opportunity to go direct to the real, human, readers, so, we need to make it easy for them but, this means eliminating stuff that gets in the way. Take page decorations. They are really left-over from illuminated manuscript days. Printers trying to imitate the old standard.
* Karen nods.
* Seanara listens.
<Margaret> But, pretty pages aren't always transparent, and now, I think we need to aim at transparent.
<Seanara> What do you mean by transparent?
<Margaret> Nothing between the reader and the story. Once the reader gets into the story she shouldn't even notice how the page looks.
* Seanara nods.
<Margaret> But, years of exposure to desktop publishing have conditioned many writers to want pretty pages. Drop caps, page decorations, multiple fonts, and so forth.
<Karen> How do you propose that scene shifts to another locale be handled then? Usually ~*~ was used by some pubs.
<Margaret> Yes, something is needed now, for epress I standardized on the Fictionwise requirement.
<Karen> Sometimes a different font is used for 'reading a document' by the main character... so I guess we have to feel out how that's done.
* Karen listens.
<Margaret> Four asterisks separated by spaces
* Karen nods
<Margaret> Yes, Karen, and that works for print on paper, but not so well for e-readers. They advertise x many fonts, and y many font sizes, but they each have their own fonts and can be hard to take when they are substituted.
* Karen never did formatting for anything that wasn't paper printed, so there's a lot to learn.
<Margaret> Plus each device has its own set, so, I use indented on both sides to set off letters, diary entries, etc.
* Karen nods.
<Margaret> Now, this is epress specific. Other publishers may differ but, since I use Styles, it is easy to change that's why I asked about Word. From Word 97 on the Styles are useful.
<Karen> My older computer that Ronnie Bob gave me has word 97 on it, but that machine tends to freeze up. Most of my old software is still among the missing.
I have word 2000 on here.
<Margaret> I have noticed most of our authors are not used to styles, so that is something that has to be applied in Pre-Press.
* Karen nods, listening.
<Margaret> 97 is very basic Styles, 2000 has more.
<Seanara> I'm afraid you lost me. What do you mean by Styles?
<Margaret> Oh, and for pdfs, particularly for proofs and review copies, just get doPDF, a free utility. Okay, Styles...
<Karen> I'm sure you'll tell me where.
<Margaret> You are familiar with formatting, fonts, sizes, spacing, etc.
<Seanara> To a certain point.
<Margaret> Most writers apply those things as they go. With Styles you are saving a set of formats.
* Karen nods.
<Margaret> Example: epress basic book style uses 12 pt Garamond which converts pretty well.
* Seanara nods.
<Margaret> Single spaced, .2 indent on first line, and for print version full-justification. All that in one style
* Seanara nods. "I think I remember this from learning how to use Pagemaker, but that was a long time ago."
<Margaret> For ebooks left justified, so I create a new style based on the basic with that one change.
<Karen> Well, this is logged, so Seanara can have a copy of this publishing info, too.
<Margaret> Then there is the style with all that plus italic. One good thing is that if you ever get into InDesign (PRICEY!!!) or Scribus (free) the Word Styles can be mapped to theirs. Microsoft website has some very good tutorials on Styles. So that is one thing that will be included in the class
* Karen nods.
<Margaret> But, before that, particularly with backlist books, how will you get them? Will they have a word processor file or a pdf or what?
<Seanara> Question -- what is a backlist book?
<Margaret> Karen, you've gone through a lot of this with the SimeGen books, haven't you?
<Karen> JL's and Jean's "backlist" were all Word files.
<Margaret> Ah, then you haven't had the 'joy' of converting a pdf
<Karen> Yes, but I didn't do the formatting, and Jacqueline and Jean are doing the galley PDF proofs, so I have no idea what the final book will look like.
I used to convert from Word to PDF a long time ago. The other way around, I don't have much experience with.
<Margaret> Well, first off, every single line ends with a hard return...
<Karen> Seanara -- backlist is anything previously released... the Dushau or S~G books are all backlist.
<Margaret> And you can't just search and replace because then you'd lose paragraphing.
<Karen> Time consuming it sounds like...
<Margaret> Yep, sheer drudgery. Better if you can insist on word processor files.
<Karen> Ick.... if learning all this helps me earn more by having the skill, so be it. I'll charge accordingly.
<Margaret> Sigh, then there are still problems. Some paragraphs will end with hard returns, some with manual returns.
* Seanara nods at Karen's explanation.
<Margaret> You want all hard returns. Fortunately that can be done with Replace.
Some writers indent with tabs, some with the space bar.
<Karen> I find space bar doesn't always work for indents.
<Margaret> And those who use the space bar to indent are rarely consistent in the number of spaces.
<Karen> I agree... I've had to fix many a manuscript.
<Margaret> Next problem is chapter headings. Writers tend to format those 'on the fly' and often don't remember how the previous one was formatted.
<Karen> So true. Fixed many of those also.
<Margaret> Again, one style to set up and apply. It would be easier if we were just doing e or just doing print but epress does both.
<Karen> understood.
<Margaret> So the master file should be as easy to change as possible, to meet the diffent requirement
<Margaret> Styles help. Keeping it simple helps. When in doubt I usually favor the e approach. NO drop caps!!!
* Karen laughs. "Never been fond of drop caps."
<Margaret> A couple of years ago I bought an e-book I really was interested in without reading the sample. Every chapter started with the second letter. They had been drop caps.
<Karen> Somebody messed up the formatting, that's for sure.
<Margaret> Yep. Keeping it simple reduces the ways you can mess up.
* Karen nods. "About time I learn a useful skill I can offer my clients. I'm grateful you suggested we try this project, Margaret."
<Margaret> So, pre-press starts when editing is done.
<Karen> USUALLY my job ended when editing was done, then the ms was sent elsewhere in the pipeline to someone different to format it.
<Margaret> I've been wanting to do it for some time, so I'm grateful for someone to test it on.
<Karen> This just might work for both of us. <hopeful look>
<Margaret> Yep. Best bargain is when both sides gain.
* Karen smiles.
<Margaret> Also, the possibility of paid mentoring for backlist authors who want to learn to do it themselves.
<Karen> Ah, another possibility.
<Margaret> Sure.
<Karen> Perhaps we should go... it's past 4:30, the usual time we close the meeting.
* Seanara nods. "Margaret, thank you for your explanation."
<Margaret> Yes, and I have to do some searching. This laptop doesn't have my links and cookies.
<Seanara> I guess if Jean shows up later and wants to meet, she can e-mail Karen???
<Karen> I look forward to e-mails from you, Margaret. I'll start a folder for at least part of this log, and go from there.
<Margaret> Thanks for pointing out places I need to be clearer, Seanara. that's a big help
* Seanara smiles.
<Margaret> Have a great year!
<Seanara> Margaret, just a suggestion...
<Margaret> Yes?
<Seanara> When you're presenting, as you have done an excellent job of...
<Karen> Seanara is somewhat tech challenged... so simple explaining is a good thing.
<Seanara> One of the things that I need to know, as I present workshops myself -- esoteric subjects, but same principle... one thing that's important is to know where your audience is coming from... a gestalt of what kind of background, knowledge, experience, etc. they have...
<Margaret> That would sure help!
<Seanara> "And what they're hoping to learn/get out of your talk, how they intend to or hope to apply it." Seanara smiles at Karen. ~~warmth, agreement~~
"Right. So a lot of terms we use when we figure our audience/students/whatever is knowledgeable in our subject... might go right over the heads if we're dealing with a basic or beginning audience... like if I'm doing a Tarot workshop and I use the terms "major arcana" and "minor arcana" without explaining them, figuring everyone there KNOWS about them..."
<Karen> Problem is you need to find a middle ground to not insult those who "know" and those who "don't" if you're going to offer some kind of e-book or printed guide to the subject matter.
<Margaret> Uhuh, Karen is an experienced editor, but you I only know as SimeGen fan.
* Seanara nods. ~~agreement~~
<Karen> Seanara also is a writer-editor to some extent, but is tech challenged.
<Seanara> Right... so you try to get a basic feel for how much your students know, so you know what you have to explain and what you don't. Thanks, Karen...
<Karen> So if we come up with a "manual" of sorts, I guess it has to be middle of the road.
<Seanara> I've done some freelance writing and taken, ages ago, the Publications Specialist summer "boot camp" at George Washington University. That was in 1996.
<Margaret> Yes, that is down the line
<Seanara> I forgot a lot of the stuff because I really didn't use it much.
Like my classes in Adobe Pagemaker 6. It's been a long time since I did any desktop publishing. And yes, as Karen said, I am very technically challenged.
<Karen> I didn't say VERY... you said it.
<Seanara> My husband, who was our computer geek, died a little over a year ago.
I did say it, Karen, 'cause it's true. ~~wry amusement~~ As a mutual friend of ours says: "I can spell "computer" and that's about it.
<Margaret> Huh, I think I was born wanting to take things apart.
<Karen> Margaret was online last year when JL dedicated the chat to Tom (Balu) who was your husband.
* Seanara nods.
<Margaret> My mother insisted that anything I took apart had to be put back together.
<Karen> I don't mind taking things apart, but only if I have an idea on how to put them together again.
<Margaret> Ayi, I remember.
<Seanara> I'm still grieving and not very able to focus on things, Margaret. But I'm doing the best that I can.
<Margaret> Grief does take its own time. May your memories comfort you
* Seanara nods. "Thank you."
<Margaret> Seems like you focused fine today.
<Seanara> Yeah, I can do it for simple things and brief periods, then I still collapse into a flood of tears. And get scattered.
<Margaret> Hugs.
<Seanara> Thank you, dear. Hugs back.
<Karen> Jean says she can't get on IRC... don't know why. Have her on AIM.
<Seanara> Oh, dear. Does she have the new numbers -- I forget what they're called... You remember, Karen, I had that same problem getting in IRC.
<Margaret> tell her HI from me and that I paid the IRC rent last month
<Seanara> Tell her hi from me, too. IRC rent?
<Margaret> epress uses the simegen IRC weekly for our editorial meetings
<Karen> We never changed the access numbers... Rent. <grin>
<Margaret> Well, most weeks.
<Seanara> "Ah." Seanara nods. "I had the old access numbers, Karen, if you remember, and I couldn't get on. Then you told me there had been new ones for ages..."
<Margaret> Worth it for a secure venue.
<Seanara> Jean may still have those old numbers.
<Karen> Hold on... look at the business meeting....
<Margaret> Oh great.
<Seanara> k... hooray.
<Karen> So far, that's all Jean has said.
* Seanara nods. "What is the problem that Jean's having getting onto IRC?"
<Karen> Don't know.
<Margaret> Oh, yay! Savage Empire!!!
<Seanara> Well, please give Jean my regards and best wishes for 2011, Karen.
<Margaret> Ditto, and I think I'm finished for today. Glad we waited for Jean.
<Seanara> Margaret, thank you for that presentation...
<Karen> I will. I think they have a router problem. She has NOTHING for the domain.
<Seanara> I'm glad we waited for Jean, too.
<Karen> Thanks, Margaret. <appreciated> I look forward to working with you.
<Margaret> Thank you both. Take care
<Seanara> Take care, and happy New Year. Hugs to you both... signing off IRC now. Karen, see you later.
<Margaret> Until later, happy new year. Goodbye.
<Seanara> Bye.
* Disconnected
Session Close: Sun Jan 02 17:02:25 2011 EST