Sime~Gen, Inc. Annual Meeting - 2001

This is a record of the informal chat going on 'next door' to the formal business meeting.

At the bottom of this file is a link to the log of the business meeting.

    - compiled by Karen

MargaretTZ -- Margaret Carr
JL -- Jacqueline Lichtenberg
Jean -- Jean Lorrah
CarolC -- Carol Castellanos
dejla -- Deborah J. Laymon
AOlson -- Ann Marie Olson
ChandraMH -- Chandra Morgan Henley
Betsy -- Elizabeth Westphal
CaptButton -- Captain Button
    (only name given)

Patric -- Patric Michael
N'omi -- N'omi Rose
Broomstick -- Broomstick
    (only name given)
Kaas -- Kaas Baichtal
ECJB -- Eric Berlin
MaryLou -- Mary Lou Mendum
Marge -- Marge Robbins

(Some people ask us not to publish their names)

Chat room log for New Year's Day 2001 -- see the Formal Meeting going on at the same time.

JL: Oh, GORGEOUS -- picked right up from B-5 and my whole pet peeve
with B5
        JL: I've been watching B5 reruns with absorption.
        JL: I do love that series -- they did so much right.
Patric: Howdy Ann...
    AOlson: Hello
        JL: lets make talk for side-comments and CHAT for the log.
    Patric: Done.
            AOlson is learning to deal with a new IRC client
        JL: oh, boy new software -- just the thing!
    AOlson: I hate dealing with new software ... which is why I use an
ancient computer and text editor to write in
            Patric laughs...
    AOlson: Hey, I probably use the most antiquated computer on a daily basis of anyone here *grin*
    AOlson: Hello N'omi
    AOlson: Hello dejla
     N`omi: hello Jacqueline, Anne Marie, Patric and everyone
     dejla: hello everyone
            Patric waves...
            JL waves back
            AOlson wonders why it is so many people spell her first name with an 'e' at the end. *sigh*
        JL: Hey, bunch of you are here early.
        JL: sorry Ann
     dejla: Anne of Green Gables, probably...
     N`omi: sorry, Ann Marie.. I was trying to do it from memory!
            AOlson laughs ... its fine ... even Deborah insists my first name ends with an e
    Patric: Its habit, Ann, same as putting a K on the end of my name...
    AOlson: I know better, Patric
     N`omi: actually, my granddaughter's middle name is Elizabeth Anne
        JL: You know, E's are invisible to me because when I was a kid learning to read the alphabet someone said they were silent -- so I figured that meant they didn't matter.  So when I learned to spell, I just felt there had to be enough e's but they didn't have to go anyplace in particular.
    Patric: Yeah, becasue I howl about it..  You dont..  You just mutter..
 CptButton: sorry, buy AOlson makes me think of America Online....
     N`omi: I didn't, Patric.. I have known a couple of other Patric's in my time!
    AOlson: NOOOOO!
 CptButton: <evil grin>
    AOlson: Sorta like the Hebrew vowel marks I've never been able to
figure out
    Patric: Gods, he's right!
     N`omi: LOL JL! I was taught the same thing.. and argued that I should be counted as spelling wrong if I dropped them!
JL: You're kidding, N'omi -- I thought I was the only one!
    Patric: Cool N'omi...  I dont know of any others with a C...
     N`omi: not at all, Jl! I think it was the mode of teaching young ones!
     dejla: That's all right. They spelled my last name wrong on my drivers' license and then insisted I bring in my birth certificate and prove them wrong.
     N`omi: well, one first man I knew is prolly older that you, Patric!
        JL: But not everyone interprets "they're silent" to mean they don't count.
     N`omi: I did, JL!
 CptButton: I have enough trouble keeping Jo Ann straight at work.
        JL: whoa -- who's dejla -- I know I know but I don't know right now.
     dejla: First two letters of my first name, middle initial, first two letters of last name. Deborah J. Laymon.
     N`omi: I am glad to be back with you all.. I have missed you since Bonnie's class ended.. I know I know my fault.. but still, I have
    Patric: Ditto...  She is one of the regulars...  Can't remember her other name...
     N`omi: hiya Deborah!
        JL: Ah Deb Laymon!!!  Of COURSE!!!
        JL: Hi Deb!
            Patric chuckles...
            dejla waves
            Patric idles for a moment...
    AOlson: Its been as long for me, N'omi, but more 'cause I'm usually
doing twenty five other things on weekends ... like writing!
        JL: Anyway, wanted to heap praise upon this Deb for the marvelous power point display!!!!  Big hit at Darkover.
     dejla: I'm home because we had houseguests due to the snow, and I'm awake at the moment...
            dejla blushes
            N`omi wants to know details, please? What is power point? what did Deb do for Darkover?
     dejla: Powerpoint isn't that difficult. And I was trained in Public Relations in grad school, y'know.
     N`omi: grins, at least are active on the list, Annmarie!
        JL: Well, training shows -- really nice presentation display.
     N`omi: ahh, I have only started to explore Powerpoint
    AOlson: For now ... starting tomorrow I'm going to be mostly absent again ... had this last week off entirely
     N`omi: what is the url, pleaseeee?
        JL: I have it up on the web - but not linked to anything.
     N`omi: ahh, so that explains the activity!
            AOlson looks at that last sentence and realized it probably should have read something to the effect AOlson is mostly off
        JL: URL for the Powerpoint -- is that what you wanted?
    AOlson: Yeah, but I'm back to working on "Away >From the Mirror" which
is not S~G
     N`omi: yes please, JL?
     dejla: It was fun, really, and a nice relaxation from writing lesson plans. We're moving to support Word at the office and becoming dual shop is not fun.
     N`omi: thanks you, JL!! <going to see it>
        JL: Actually, one of the things I admired about this Powerpoint is that it does not violate any of the rules I have learned about PR writing, ad writing, nonfiction writing, etc etc.  And that is very rare, even though
PR and Ad writing are not my specialty.
JL: Eric!
        JL: Welcome!
        JL: I have a favor to ask of you -- just occurred to me this morning.
    AOlson: Hello Eric
      ECJB: Greetings.
            Patric returns, and waves to Eric..
            ECJB waves back...
 CptButton: for the holiday:
    AOlson: Go right ahead, JL
        JL: is
the Powerpoint that Deb Laymon made for us that we had at Darkover.  N'omi is watching it.  But that's not the favor I had in mind.
     N`omi: back! I will have to see it afterwards.. as I cannot watch two things at once! not enough ram
        JL: Eric -- what we need for our School of Philosophy is a really good Christian page, with an explanation of what makes Christian beliefs important to the believers, and of the tenets most important, and a list of links to good sites.  This would be for WRITING STUDENTS who've never met a Christian (and there are some, we've got folks all over the world).  Could you make me a few pages like that?
     dejla: Mmmm.  You'd have to have a few, all right. When you look at the differences between Catholics and Protestants, and then get into the various Protestant versions... there's as much difference there as there is in politics.
      ECJB: As a matter of fact, this is something I have been struggling with ... more CONTENT than CODE.
            dejla speaking as the daughter of an American Baptist minister...
        JL: Yes, lots of links -- but someone has to pick who knows what they're doing.  Not ME!
        JL: Really?  Baptist?
        JL: Interesting -- well, we could use a page of that too.
            N`omi chuckles
     N`omi: Jl. have you or someone done the same for Jews?  I am so sickif seeing tallit worn inappropriately on ads, and in writings, etc., etc.
        JL: I've got some Buddhist stuff coming in -- and I really need bunches more of everything else we can think of.
     dejla: AMERICAN Baptist. Not at all Southern. They've been taken over by a vocal and narrow-minded minority.
     N`omi: of course, there is Chadisim clear to reconstructionist.. and all the in betweens <shudder at the work>
     N`omi: here here, Deb!
        JL: N'omi -- I have a quickie demo page up for Judaism - mostly links. If you have a pet-peeve like that -- do an essay on it.  Few paragraphs and some links and we'll post it.  That is exactly the sort of thing I mean -- what writers need to know about other people's customs to portray them believably.
AOlson: Are you going to allow Islam, or is it forbidden?
     dejla: My father went to a seminary whose students voted in the fifties to desegregate -- and presented the faculty with the ultimatum -- on the theory that segregation was unChristian.
    AOlson: Cool Deb
     N`omi: Islam is one I certainly need help on.. I hope someone does a page on that one!
        JL: No, I really NEED Islam -- just have never found anyone who could do it.
JL: Hi Karen --
     N`omi: hi Karen!
        JL: I'm here beating up on people to make them work.
    Patric: Hi Karen..  Which is which?
     dejla: Islam is difficult. It's not something I have a lot of sympathy
with, but there are many devout people who believe in it...
    AOlson: I've done the research, but finding someone who lives it is a
problem ... my own perception of Islam is highly skewed towards the
Sufi/Sunni variety
     Karen: Hi, I'm on with two IRC's, and if you like, you can op me.  I'm both
    AOlson: Hello Karen
     Karen: Hi everyone.
N`omi: every religion has its right and left wing
    Patric: Whee! Got  ya both in in a shot!
  Karen: Thanks.   Should I log both rooms.
        JL: great -- Karen if we get enough people, maybe we'll get one whole intact log.
    AOlson: Although the web is a great place to find out about Islam, as it is generally quite tech friendly as far as religions go
        JL: Yes, please log both.
            Patric mutters... and I am also logging both windows.
 N`omi> yet, we need folks who practice.. to help use define the nuances that are so easily violated
<ECJB> So am I.
<JL> And yes, Ann -- what we need is someone who LIVES the philosophy to speak for it.
<dejla> That's true. When I was doing research on Tunisia and needed some information on Islam for color, it was easy to find info.
<N`omi> so am I... if I can stay connected, that is
<Karen> I rarely lose my connection, so you should have intact logs, at least of our Chat.
<AOlson> Most of the people I know who are Islamic, are far too busy with their own lives
<JL> At any rate, Ann -- if we can't find a person, could you please do up a page of links for us?
<AOlson> Sure, with a note as to which variety you're looking at ... which is the real kicker for Islam ... Sunni is *so* different from Shi'ite
<JL> what I want to build is a Philosophy section that will serve as a resource for writers -- both to find out how to portray a character, and to get ideas for stories by looking for the natural conflicts.
<JL> Nothing is hotter than a religious controversy for setting up a plot-conflict.
* AOlson continues to mutter about Ethiopian, Sub-Saharan, Turkish, Bedouin and so on
<dejla> Certainly Islam seems to require the same sort of time budget that Chasidim and some of the specific Catholic schools require. Which I admire. I don't know if I have the commitment to emulate it, but I admire it.
<JL> Take Mixed-Marriage for example -- lots of romances tackling that now, but how many really understand WHY a mixed marriage has problems?
<dejla> I just realized the other night that I'm doing, of all things, Joan of Arc in Simegen.
<CptButton> there was someone on rasfw a month or two back griping about portrayal of Islam in s/f and citing his group as a counter example.  I can dig an email up if you like
<AOlson> I certainly wasn't willing to deal with a mixed marriage ... didn't even want to marry a male
<N`omi> yes, mixed marriages provide for wonderful conflict!
<JL> Well, that's the orthodox end of the Islam practice.  Most people are much more distant and casual in their practices.
<AOlson> I'd really appreciate that, CptButton
<N`omi> kewl, Deb!
<Karen> Considering I grew up in a mixed marriage religious home, I can give you an idea, and we rarely had conflict.
<N`omi> mixed marriages occur is gay relationships also (having been in a few)
<AOlson> You can certainly say that again, JL ... some are so distant they don't even practice circumcision or Halal
<JL> Yes, Ann, precisely.
<dejla> I think it depends on the strength of conviction in the believers. I could never have married a Catholic boy... I would never have signed a promise to raise my children Catholic.
<JL> Ah, now there's a story, Deb!
<N`omi> relationships are relationships.. no matter the official recognition of marriage!
<AOlson> Which is one of the fun things about writing in the Islamic world ... its really hard to screw up too badly because so much of the religious practice varies so wildly depending on where you are
<Patric> Hey MaryLou... :)
<AOlson> Hello MaryLou
<MaryLou> Hello!
<JL> One popular story-motif right now is the arranged-marriage for reasons of State (Kings and Dukes etc).  Suppose someone with Deb's attitude were betrothed to a boy at birth -- and the boy converted to Catholicism and she couldn't get out of the marriage.  CONFLICT!
<JL> MaryLou!!!!!!  Wheee!!!
* MaryLou sniffles.
<N`omi> but the character you present has to be belieable.. so their religious practice has to match whatever religion they practice.. how ever small
* MaryLou is trying to get off of the pseudephed today.
<N`omi> hi MaryLou
* JL hands MaryLou Ronnie Bob's starred-cross box of Kleenex.
<dejla> yes, and no. Marriage, being a civil ceremony as well as a sacrament, has ties that can't be easily sundered, and when you actually form that kind of commitment, you enter an entire new phase of the relationship.
<MaryLou> lol
<AOlson> Yeah, but if you mess up something like the practice of exactly how the prayers are performed, its not such a big deal
* N`omi shares her Puffs over to MaryLou
<N`omi> exactly!
<JL> I still have that box -- picture of it posted online somewhere.
<N`omi> LOl Oh I would love to see that one, JL!
<JL> Ann -- that's one of the beauties of working in a far-future s/f universe -- you can invent details that support your story, not twist your story to support the details.
<Karen> You can always refill the box....
<dejla> They've done a lot of studies on the difference between living together and being married [and gay marriages are performed by some faith groups] and when the commitment is there, it changes the way you perceive the relationship. It's easier by far to walk away from a living together partnership than a married partnership.
<JL> Karen -- have you any idea where the Darkover pix are in /sgfandom/  ??? 
<AOlson> Which is why I write futuristic and fantastic romances ... not comtemporary ... I'm terrified of putting something wrong in contemporary
<AOlson> Hello Kaas
<N`omi> oh yes, I am not arguing that, Deb!!  I was only trying to bring into account that mixed marriages (religion wise) affects the relationship.. and is great for conflict
<AOlson> Hello Betsy
<MaryLou> Hi, y'all!
<N`omi> hiya Betsy
<JL> Hi Kaas -- Betsy --
<N`omi> hello kaas
<Betsy1> Merry Meet, Everyone
<Kaas> whisper cptbutton Hi!
<JL> Betsy - can you give us more name to identify you?
<Karen> Should be our Betsy Westphal.
<Betsy1> Karen's right.  It's me.
<JL> We've got a couple -- and you know me and NAMES.
<Patric> Hi Betsy!  Kass...
<JL> aha!  Then you're the one sent me a short story?  Or part of one?
* Patric is catching up...
<JL> It was in html format, right?
<Betsy1> Yep. 
<Betsy1> I didn't know we had any other Betsys
<JL> I just printed it and it's upstairs waiting to see if I ever get to my reading chair this week.
<Betsy1> Especially not ones that use "Merry Meet" or "Blessed be"
<JL> Well, maybe not in the S~G operations, but there's a bunch of Elizabeth variations in my life at the moment.
<Karen> I don't think I saw that story.
<Betsy1> Good luck getting to the reading chair.
<Betsy1> Karen, you didn't
<Betsy1> Long story
<JL> Karen - you will see it, I'm sure.  Right now it's in development.
* Karen smiles. "If you want me to help, just shout."
<JL> Betsy -- did you also send me a summary of the story idea earlier?
<Betsy1> Very early development, if at all
<Betsy1> No, I didn't
<JL> Yeah, Karen's got a reading addiction.  Especially to S~G. 
<Betsy1> No, I didn't send a summary.  That's another -long- story
<JL> OK, then I've got two stories in development at this time.
* Karen is running out of reading material, and no TV, for a multitude of reasons.
* AOlson tries sliding up to Karen in a friendly way with a manuscript in hand
* JL uh-ho Ann's got karen's full attention.
* Patric laughs... Ann, you silly.. ;)
* AOlson bats eyelashes at friendly type editor person
<MaryLou> Jacqueline, is your second the Den and Rital we workshopped at Darkover, or is someone else writing as well?
* ECJB chuckles...
* Karen smiles at Ann. "We'll see what you have."
<N`omi> Hello Margaret! beat ya here! <grins>
<MargareTZ> Hi All
<AOlson> It isn't S~G, but rather M&S for pro-publication
<Patric> Hi Margaret...  Which one are you, please?
<N`omi> LOL Ann
<JL> Margaret! 
<MargareTZ> so I see N`omi
<AOlson> Hello Margaret!
<Betsy> Sorry I had some technical difficulties there for a moment
<MargareTZ> Patric I am Margaret I. Carr
* Patric admits freely to being braindead..
<AOlson> Sokay ... happens
<Patric> Margaret!!!  Welcome!
<MargareTZ> hi JL, glad to be back
* AOlson wonders just how good a new year's even Patric did have
<JL> Yeah, old-home reunion here.  Look at all of us!
<Betsy> Some of us go back *years*...
* Patric snerfs and quite literally forgot it was new years eve until about 10:30pm...
<JL> Karen -- I have not a single note on who gets what awards -- don't even know what awards we have to issue.
<MargareTZ> uhuh, except for N`omi, haven't seen any of you for a while
* Karen smiles, as she's been stuck here in a snowy house since Saturday.... I never did get out for New Year's
<JL> I have spent all my time on the Corp shit this week.  Can you help?
<MaryLou> Not since Darkover, at least.
<Betsy> How was Darkover this year?
<MargareTZ> yikes! have that ahead of me!
* Patric waves to Seanara, BEFORE Karen!
<AOlson> Hello Seanara
<Karen> Well, we have the Tech-ton awards (technical awards)  The silver and gold Yo-Yo's, the Risa Tigue recycle awards, but not that many nominees for any of them.
* N`omi wants an award! <chuckles> ohh, does she have to *write* to get it?
<JL> Hey Seanara!  Good to see you here.
<MargareTZ> hi Seanara
<Seanara> Hi, everyone. Good to be here. ~~appreciative warmth~~
<MaryLou> Hello!
<JL> Karen -- quick define the awards would you please?
<JL> ~~hugging Seanara~~
<JL> We have to figure out what everyone's been doing while I haven't been watching.
* Karen sighs.
* Seanara returns JL's hug
* JL what would I do without Karen????
<Karen> Tech-ton is the technical awards, (I believe) to keep the domain running.
<Karen> Shen, you can do a lot without me.
<JL> The Digen Award is for Meritorious Service above and beyond the call of Duty -- service to S~G. 
<MargareTZ> who started the Good Deed stuff? That really deserves an award even if it means creating a new one!
* Patric agrees...
<JL> That was Jean's idea taken off of a suggestion on the list -- who suggested the paypals deal for Karen, do you remember? 
<JL> You're right -- I think the one who suggested the paypals thing should get a Digen.
<AOlson> Yes, that was a wonderful idea
* N`omi wants the Digen award
<JL> It was one of the guys --
<Karen> Don Jaramillo suggested paypal;
<JL> Good -- N'omi you work for it, you'll get one next year.
<Betsy> Yes, and it fits into the Digen Award concept well, as it was "above and beyound..."
<MargareTZ> ouch. I have it on the hard drive that died this morning.
<N`omi> ahh, that dreaded word.. work!
<dejla> It was a terrific idea.
<Betsy> The message has to be somewhere on the server
<MargareTZ> then I nominate Don for the Digen
<AOlson> I'll second that nomination!
<JL> Yes, and Jean had been thinking about it and Don got ahead of her, and then the GOOD DEED site came together nicely with Lois's work.
* ECJB is looking at the URL for the Powerpoint  page JL posted earlier...*NEAT*!
<JL> Oh, Lois is putting up one of my novels this month.
<MargareTZ> so nominate Jean and Lois
<Betsy> Maybe, if somebody else suggested the idea & Don suggested PayPal, they could share or both get the Digen
<JL> the Powerpoint is Dejla's  -- praise her!
<Karen> Shouldn't we do this vote thingie in the other window?
<Betsy> I didn't think we were voting yet
<JL> Jean is eligible for a Digen -- quick before she gets here so she doesn't run and hide.
<MargareTZ> just preliminary discussion
<JL> I've won one -- but I am not sure Jean ever did.
* Karen is laughing. Jean should have one.
<JL> Not voting, no -- conspiring.
<Betsy> Well, we can give it to her even if she isn't here, in absentia
<Seanara> It's about time she won one, then.
<JL> She'll be here.
<Karen> Then she is running late.
<AOlson> Give Miz Teague an award named after a Farris ... hmmm ... sounds iffy to me
<Betsy> We should get done conspiring before she arrives
<MargareTZ> okay, I put formal nomination in sgchat
<JL> OK, Don Jaramillo and Jean get Digen Awards for PAYPALS and GOOD DEED.
<JL> Yeah, good Margaret -- nominate them formally!!! 
<Patric> Karen, you jotting these down?
<Karen> Well, the only Tigue award we have is for recycling computers, and making computers available to those who don't have them.
<JL> Oh, here's Jean -- get in her face!
<Karen> I'm logging.
<MargareTZ> added nomination for Don
<AOlson> Hello Jean
<JL> I don't see your nominations in #sgchat
<MaryLou> Hello, Jean!
<MargareTZ> hi Jean
<Jean> Hi
<MargareTZ> I did them
<JL> Maybe you're in the wrong room -- it should be #sgchat
<N`omi> recycling computers? cool!! where can I go to donate and receive?
<JL> Hi Jean -- look the gang's all here and Chandra said she's coming too.
<MargareTZ> no, you and everyone else there
<N`omi> wb Kaas
<Patric> Try it now..  Might have been my error..
<MargareTZ> scroll back to just before Jean entered
<JL> Basically the recycling of computers usually starts on simegen-l and goes from there.
<Karen> We can find someone who needs a computer, and we can set you both up to exchange.
<MargareTZ> you mean redo the nominations, Patric?
<Kaas> We heh
<JL> Hi Chandra!
<Patric> Yes, please, Margaret...
<AOlson> Hello Chandra
<JL> Yo Kaas again.
<Patric> Chandra!  bounce bounce bounce... :)
<ChandraMH> Hi
<ChandraMH> LOL
<JL> Folks - this is the formal introduction of Chandra L. Morgan-Henley who will be the new head of our school operations, most especially re-doing all my yucky pages.
<ChandraMH> It's been a dog's age since I used mIRC.  Good thing I haven't lost ALL my memory yet.
<N`omi> hello Jean!
<AOlson> Good to meet you Chandra
<Patric> Ann..  She is REALLY cool, too...  !!
<MargareTZ> hi Chandra
<Karen> You could have gotten in on Techtools/chat, which is the Java chat website.
<N`omi> glad to meet ya Chandra!
<ChandraMH> Hi y'all... eventually I will learn who everyone is.
<AOlson> Ah, great!
<JL> chandra -- we have some of our school's registered students here who took the courses we have up.
<JL> Introduce yourselves folks!
<Karen> I posted that to the list just awhile back, to gather anyone else who may not have mIRC
<JL> Don't be shy -- Chandra is good people.
<ChandraMH>... doorbell
<Patric> Hi Carol!
<CarolC> Hi
<AOlson> I was one of the original vict*%^ *ahem* students in the Essence of Story class
<MargareTZ> I took Essence of Story and audited the Editing class, Chandra
* Patric ahems...
<AOlson> Hello Carol
<JL> Who is CarolC?
<Patric> Castellano
<ChandraMH> back
<Karen> It should be Carol Castellanos
<CarolC> Castellanos
<AOlson> Oh yes, and I was the guinea pig for the editing class
<JL> Ah, great -- Yo Carol.
<Patric> Even if I didn't spell it right..
<Betsy> Guinea pig?
<JL> yes, Ann - AOlson is a wonderful, brave soul who volunteers for us to experiment on.
<AOlson> It was one of my stories Bonnee got to beat up on
<Patric> Oh listen to her!  She loved it...!
<AOlson> I appreciated it greatly and am waiting for someone to do a first read on it
<AOlson> The revised version that is
<Betsy> Is it M&S?
<Karen> A lot of people learned from the class at the time, and are still learning from that.
<AOlson> Yes
<ChandraMH> Well, right now I'm beating myself over the head learning Javascript -- hope to have a handle on it soon so I can concentrate on the real "meat" of the school thing.
<JL> Go on up to #sgchat and nominate for the Digen if you can think of anyone who should get it.
<AOlson> My first reader was due to have her baby on the 28th of December ... when I get anything back is anyone's best guess
<Patric> Chandra, we gotta compare notes sometime... :)
<MargareTZ> hmm, maybe Bonnie and Slick for helping with Editing class?
<AOlson> I hate Javascript enabled pages ... slows so much stuff down
<Betsy> Actually, AMO, you may get it sooner than you think.  Once the kidlet is born, she will not be getting much sleep & may end up reading...
<Patric> That's a broad statement, Ann... 
<ChandraMH> Well, I'm trying to streamline the top level page so people can see most of what there is to see without having to scroll.
<JL> Any other nominations for service above and beyond all human reasonableness?
<AOlson> Yes, unless of course it is done by a master ... but then I have to swim upstream against a lot of bad web site designs
<Karen> PATRIC!!!!!!!!!  Without question.
<AOlson> I would really appreciate that Chandra
* Patric chuckles with Chandra. That's a goal of a lifetime..
<JL> Nominate him then.
<Karen> Beyond all reasonableness....
<CarolC> Yes I agree.  Without Patric I would be lost on some stuff.
<JL> Yes, that's Patric all right.
<Seanara> I second that nomination of Patric.
<MargareTZ> yes, nominate him Karen
<ChandraMH> In order to do that I'm using a mouseover-nested menu system but I need to know enough Javascript to customize it.
<Patric> I can help you with that, IF you can figure out why MSIE 5 hates that frame, and MSIE 4 doesnt...
<Jean> Jacqueline, please list all the awards, so everyone won't be nominated for the first one when they fit later ones better.
<AOlson> Garf ... just be careful .. it is so easy to get all this stuff tangled up and confuse stupid people like me *grin*
<ChandraMH> Tell you what, I'll come up with an answer for that this week.  ;)
<JL> We did that before you came Jean.
<Karen> Feel free to list them again if you want, Jean.
* Patric snorts at Ann...
<JL> We're starting with the Digen -- then the Tech-Ton (for tech expertise). 
<ECJB> Scrolling back...I mista mussed it.
<Karen> Maybe you can clarify them more than I can.
<Jean> I have no idea what they are.
<JL> Yeah, we keep forgetting year to year. 
<Patric> Chandra, definitely do.  I am stumped.  Its gotta be something really SIMPLE...
<AOlson> Watch it with that snort Patric or you *will* show up in one of my stories *grin*
<Karen> They haven't changed much during the years we've had them.
<Patric> Ann, you are far from stupid...
<JL> <Karen> Well, we have the Tech-ton awards (technical awards)  The silver and gold Yo-Yo's, the Risa Tigue recycle awards, but not that many nominees for any of them.
<AOlson> Hello Broomstick
<Betsy> Maybe we should put it somewhere on the website so we won't forget from year to year
<Patric> Hi Broom!  I was hoping you'd show up...
<AOlson> I can be stupid when I want to be ... ~~lets light shine through blond hair and out eyes~~
<Karen> The award winners are on a website, obviously named "Awards"(
<Patric> Betsy..  There IS a place, but Patric has been lousy at maintaining it!
<JL> Ah, Broomstick -- isn't that the one who sent me an outline of a S~G story?  Great -- glad to see you here!
<Betsy> Oh, AMO, if you put Patric in a story, would he be a lord or a sharm lord...
<Patric> Ann, now with an E, you are sillier and sillier...
<AOlson> It depends on how bad he is to me ... I was thinking of Mikhail Chernoye, actually
<JL> Sharm Lord -- I vote for Sharm Lord
<AOlson> Comes with writing
<Betsy> I don't know about the maintenance, but maybe it should be more prominent
<JL> somebody second the closing so we can vote?
<AOlson> LOL!
<Betsy> Mikhail Chernoye??
<AOlson> He's a hoot, too ... have some of a plot for a story with him on the spike
<JL> Let's see some aye's up there quick like.
<Patric> It will be..  Marge is taking over the SGFandom, and she will be able to feature it more consistently..
<JL> OK, I want a single motion up there that says let's award all of them a Digen.
<Broomstick> Hi all - think I got this figured out now
<Betsy> I had the same prob, Broomstickk
<Patric> Welcome back..  Hi Marge..
<JL> Welcome aboard Broomstickk -- what's your name? 
<AOlson> Hello Marge
<Marge> Hi Patric
* ECJB thinks that those who work here are award-able...which seems to include all present at some point or other.
<Broomstick> Oh, you want my REAL name, huh?
<JL> Let's see a bunch of ayes in favor of all of them getting this one!
<AOlson> Hmmmm Patric as a Sharm Lord ... hmmm, definately could go ... but which Demense?
<Patric> I just remember the "flying em" sig line.  Too funny..!
<Betsy> Well, maybe something *real-er* than a clearning device...
<JL> Anyone hasn't voted get your Aye in #sgchat
<Jean> I want to claim Patric ambrov Keon.
<Patric> Clearning: Combination between Learning, and cleaning?
<Jean> He is a definite male Tigue.
<Betsy> Typo, Patric
<JL> That's Patric the Clearning Demesne
<Broomstick> No, it's a flying device.
<ChandraMH> clearning - cyber learning?
<AOlson> Broom stick as learning device ... swat someone with it to knock some sense into them?
* ECJB chuckles...
<Betsy> There are Teagues in Russia, so that fits
<Patric> Drat.  Wrong window..  Erf!
<dejla> Like the man said about the mule -- you got to get his attention first...
<N`omi> what did I miss?
<AOlson> Random chatter and stuff about the Digen Awards
<Patric> They are picking on me, N'omi!
<AOlson> And where I'm going to stick Patric as a Sharm Lord
<MargareTZ> vote for Digen award, Jean, Don, Lois and Patric
<Betsy> N'omi, you also missed some conspiring
* Karen smiles. "We pick on you because we like you."
<JL> OK, we have our Digens for the year -- Tech-Ton next.
<N`omi> ohh dear!!
<JL> who had contributed massively in the tech area this year?
<N`omi> poor Patric!
<AOlson> Only place he'd go is Sergei ... which could be a lot of fun depending on when *evil grin*
<Broomstick> What's a Digen award for?
<Betsy> AMO, it's simple, which Demesne can stand up to a Teague Sharm Lord?
<N`omi> where does the Buffy award go? <sic>
<JL> we have one nominee for the Tech-ton -- who else?  Dancer?
<JL> Jenn?
<Karen> Digen award was for meritorious service
<Betsy> How about Chandra for taking on the redesign project?
<ECJB> Option E:  All of the Above.
<Broomstick> Hmm, Digen isn't for martyrdom?
<AOlson> So sorry to hear about the 'speach impediment' Jean
<ChandraMH> Ack!  I'm still pulling my hair out over Javascript!
<N`omi> I vite Aye
<AOlson> *snerf* Broomstick
<Betsy> Doing something that earns you a Digen *is* a form of martyrdom!
<Broomstick> OK
<JL> Who else is tech-ton award
<Jean> There is always next year for people who haven't been here very long.
<Patric> Surviving it is a form of martyrdom...
<JL> Oh, yes, the Digen winners are martyr-ready-firmware.
<Betsy> Well, I think Chandra deserves an award for starting on the r-do, and another one next year for doing it
<Karen> Then nominate Chandra....
<Patric> Tech: Most of our tech is in presentation this year, right?
<Karen> Chandra has been in our fandom quite awhile, and has just returned.
<JL> WEll, you've done some stuff with the carousel.
* AOlson wonders if excessively long fingernails is the keyboard equivalent of a lisp
<JL> That button-sized one we're launching.
<Karen> Tech can be scripts, anything
<JL> and Patric takes the absolute PRIZE for his work with (and donation of running space for) FORMS PROCESSING.
<Patric> No, I don't meant the carousel...  I was thinking of Claire and her redesign..
* ChandraMH hides
* N`omi moans
<Karen> Claire would also qualify.
<JL> Oh, that's an art award.
<Karen> I don't think we have an art award.
<JL> Not sure it's tech -- but it's electronic art and I'd suppose that qualifies as tech.
<AOlson> That's fixable
<Jean> Do we have an Arensti Award?
<Betsy> Maybe we should have an art award?
<JL> Right, we don't and can't keep track of what we do have.
<ECJB> Then make one?
<Betsy> And somebody's working on keeping track of what we do have
<Karen> I don't think we ever had a real Arensti award.
<Karen> About time we did, since the paper zines didn't have such an award.
<JL> OK, we'll award her the Arensti for her artwork. 
<Betsy> Then maybe we should
<Betsy> The 1st annual Arensti
<JL> Let's finish the Tech-ton first -- then we'll do artwork.
<Karen> One award at a time though... we're working on Tech-ton
<Patric> Well..  art is subjective, and redesign means to make it work with the current tech, not just paint pretty pictures..
<Jean> We've got Patric with a second, Chandra without.
<Jean> Jenn and Dancer with a second.
<MargareTZ> also Jenn & Dancer with second
<JL> Yes, will someone please second Jenn and Dancer?
<N`omi> wb Ann
<MargareTZ> 4 is a good number
<AMOlson> Urf, my connect got chomped ... this is Ann Marie
<JL> They've kept us on the air despite losing our T-1 connection.
<MargareTZ> Karen seconded
<Kaas> It seems odd, why don't you just give them to whoever you want to?
<MargareTZ> wb AnnMarie
<Patric> AMOlson...(Sacrens)  I KNOW that name....?
<ChandraMH> Didn't the Sacrens invade somebody sometime?
<Patric> Ah!  Ok..
<Betsy> Lots of somebodies, actually
<AMOlson> They were what the Crusaders called the Arabs
<Jean> Giving them to whoever we want to is the process we are engaged in here, Kaas.
<ChandraMH> History's not my strong point.  ;)
<Kaas> Sure Jean.
<ChandraMH> Grammar, spelling, HTML... I'm a little better at those.  <G>
<Betsy> That's OK, some of us spend too much time and money on reading history, watching the History Channel, etc
<AMOlson> Its the nick I use more than my real name, actually
<JL> Karen - or someone who cleans this log will have to rearrange some of the statements in the #sgchat!
<JL> Everyone give me some ayes up there.
<JL> Friends Romans and Simes - lend me your ayes!
<N`omi> we did, JL!
<Karen> I planned to clean both logs as I always do, but this one is incomplete, you were here before I was.
* AMOlson really has to cut hooves
<MargareTZ> 7 ayes so far
<Broomstick> Sort of like I use the "Broomstick" handle in real life as much as my given name, I suppose
<Betsy> Does all the chit-chat in this one end up in a log somewhere?
<ECJB> I'll send you mine when it is closed, KLM.
<Karen> We used to put up the chat and vote log.
<Betsy> Does highly marketable fine art count as commercial art?
<JL> Marketable is the key concept.
<Broomstick> I never thought there was a hard fast line between the forms of art
<AMOlson> I would say Deborah for the wonderful PowerPoint set up
<JL> Oh, yes!  Thank you AMOlson.
<JL> Nominate her!
<JL> That is definitely precisely the kind of thing the Arensti would be for.
<MargareTZ> quick
<JL> oy, lost Patric
<Betsy> So Beethoven, who has sold a *lot* of recordings over the years, would qualify?
<MargareTZ> wb Patric
<AMOlson> Welcome back
<N`omi> wb Patric!
<Broomstick> Hey, the Sistine chapel was done on commission
<Karen> Jacqueline, if you can op me in the logged discussion, I can op others.... if we lose Patric again.
* Patric mutters uncontrollably...
<JL> Beethoven was a commercial artist - they all were.  Anyone who has to please a patron to eat is a commercial artist.
<Kaas> heh heh oh boy
<Betsy> That's my point, Jacqueline
<Betsy> It was *very* marketable at the time, and also great music
<Broomstick> Most fine artists take commission work at some point in their careers
<JL> OK, someone move to close the nominations?
<JL> thanks
<AMOlson> There's an argument not to be a fine artist *grin*
<Broomstick> I tried the artist life.  I got tired of living on a Sime diet
<JL> give me a bunch of ayes up there quick
<Betsy> Yes, one might as well be a commercial artist from the beginning, eat like a Russian Gen and have fun
<N`omi> sorry that I keep jumping in too soon
<AMOlson> Which is why I'm an engineer, not an anthropologist or a writer ... I really like to eat
<Marge> Heat wave here. It's 21 degrees right now
<Broomstick> I tried the commercial artist thing, too - all that happened was larger portions of rice and cabbage
<AMOlson> Indeed
<Broomstick> (well, it keeps you regular, if nothing else...)
<JL> more ayes required, please
<Betsy> I know how that works, as a physician in training, I eat a *lot* of rice
<Kaas> The difficulty with being a commercial artist from the beginning is then you have to deal with the sort of customers who can only afford a beginner.
<N`omi> thanks Karen
<Betsy> I hadn't thought of that, Kaas
<N`omi> growing rice damages the ecosystem
<ChandraMH> I said I didn't feel qualified to vote and I'm not rescinding that.  <G>
<Broomstick> Right - I once had a lady not pay me.
<Betsy> Growing anything commercially damages the ecosystem.
<AMOlson> Whereas writers now can hide all their practice pieces on a CD-ROM ... I love technology
<Broomstick> So one day I snuck into her office and sat on her desk until she cut me a check
<JL> OK, what's the next award?
<AMOlson> Good for you
<N`omi> true true
<Betsy> That's persistence, Broomstick!
<JL> anyone paying attention here?
<AMOlson> Yes
<Betsy> Yes
* AMOlson has no idea what the next award is
<Broomstick> It took 2 hours and 40 minutes for her to figure out I wasn't kidding - I really
<JL> What's the next award.
<Jean> What's next?
<N`omi> good for you!
<Broomstick> was going to stay there until she gave it up
<CarolC> I am but am waiting to see what the next award is and not sure if I am qualified to vote myself.
* ChandraMH is too new to even know what the awards ARE
<Betsy> I know someone who needed an extension on a major paper and did something similar
<Broomstick> I've very stubborn :D
* Patric is old and creaky and he still don't know what the awards are!
<CarolC> Especially as I mostly only work with a few people.  Karen, Patric, Jean, JL & Darlene
<N`omi> I did that to *get* a job, once! and yes, I got the job!
<AMOlson> Do we have anyone up for the Risa Teague recycling award?
<Betsy> No, no Teagues yet
<CarolC> What's the recycling award?
<Patric> Not that I know of...
<Broomstick> I won't vote, I'm too new here, but I am observing
<JL> Oh, yes, the Teague
<Jean> Recycling computers.
<Karen> Well, there is the Golden YoYo (which was AZ's) and the Silver Yo-Yo from CZ, and the Computer Recycling award, the Tigue.
<AMOlson> I'm a flyer out in left field ... so I pretty much keep my mouth shut except when I'm in a mood to 'kick the dog', like before Christmas
<MargareTZ> someone who donates hardware or, I guess software
<JL> Oh, forgot the Yo-Yo's.
<Jean> Or other equipment, but it's only been computers so far.
<Broomstick> Donates to who/what?
<JL> I suspect the people working Reviews deserve Yo-Yo's
<ChandraMH> Tell you what, next year you can nominate me for recycling old web pages into new ones (once I get the top page done and can start on the other stuff)  <G>
<Betsy> What other equipment do we need in the 21st C, anyway?
<JL> They do an awful lot of back-and-forth-and-around-in-circles to get those reviews up and posted.
<CarolC> Exactly Chandra that's what I thought for the romance
<Betsy> Look out, Chandra, or we will!
<ChandraMH> LOL
<Kaas> Well I founded the award and it was meant for loaning computers to S~G fans who did not have one so that they could join the online fandom.
<JL> Possibly Patric for inventing the posting form for the reviews section -- practically at a moment's notice.
<Jean> Someone who gets a new computer donates his/her old one to someone on the list who has worse equipment
<Kaas> However it would probably be more like Jean's definition now that the fandom has been online for a while.
<JL> So has anyone passed along a computer this year?
* AMOlson looks around at antique computers still in use
<CarolC> So who has been doing it and how much.  then we can vote with that information.
<Broomstick> I'm not giving up my beloved 286!
<Broomstick> (Although obviously I'm not using the 286 for this...)
<Jean> I don't think there were any this year.
* AMOlson dances with glee that someone has an older computer in use than she does
<Kaas> Not that you guys would consider legitimate.
<Patric> I thin white owl was the last to do the computer swap...
<N`omi> LOL Ann!
<CarolC> I agree with the Patric being nominated.  Alot of the reviews sections are utilizing the reviews form.
<Karen> I don't think there was any donated this year.
<Jean> My Thinkpad turned into a doorstop, so I couldn't donate it when I got the Sony.
<AMOlson> Do you still have it!
<Jean> OK--are we on Yo-Yos now?
* AMOlson is looking for a dead notebook to cannibalize
<JL> Yeah, Karen was that this year you got the new computer -- and that deserves a yo-yo at least for back-n-forth to get it running.
<ChandraMH> There may be someone who knows how to turn doorstops back into computers...
<Seanara> Crystal Owl, not White Owl.
<N`omi> I'll take it! maybe it can be repaired?
<Karen> All my computers got recycled a long time ago.  The little modem has still been making the trip.
<Betsy> I thought we were still on Teagues
* N`omi would almost sell her soul for a laptop
<Patric> Sorry Seanara.  I warned early on I was braindead.. :)
<Kaas> whisper AMOlson I have been trying to donate a laptop to you for months, what is the problem?
<JL> Teagues Award is for recycling isn't it?
* Seanara grins at Patric. NP.
<Karen> No, last year it was Crystal Owl that came and went..... this year, Eric has helped keep it running most of the time.
<Betsy> Recycling computer stuff, in particular
<AMOlson> Don't want to do someone out of something which might actually be useful ... would rather take a deader
<Jean> Apparently there was no recycling in 2000.
<Broomstick> Right, we were all stocking up resources for the Y2K thing...
<Patric> None that I am aware of, Jean..
<JL> alright already -- any NOMINATIONS for Teague, put them in #sgchat please. 
<JL> If none, we move on to the Yo-Yo's.
<JL> We have two -- Gold and Silver.
<Patric> There are none.  lets move on..
<Jean> OK, then, let's move on.
<Broomstick> Yo yo?
<JL> But one isn't worth more than the other -- they were for two different 'zines.
<JL> They are worth the same and have the same qualifications.
<Jean> When something goes way around several barns to get where it belongs.
<AMOlson> Yo-yo does not equal number of times story gets sent back and forth before being printed
<JL> Basically you win an award for surviving a helluva ordeal of going round in circles trying to get something done and not giving up and getting it done even though it made you crazy nevermind dizzy.
<Jean> When it is crazy the manipulations something goes through to get done.
<Betsy> It doesn't? <g>
<Karen> Nope....yo-yo's don't go for story circulation and re-writes.
<Kaas> It is a pity that D. Yon's donation of a machine for your backup list archives was ignored.
<N`omi> like dealing with the Buffy experiment
<Kaas> Considering the archives were created at JL's request.
<Kaas> I guess I should take those down hey?
<Jean> Who is D. Yon?
<Kaas> D. Yon Klempner, one of your fans.
<MargareTZ> why didn't you nominate then, Kaas?
<Jean> Why have I not heard of this person or this machine?
<Patric> Kaas...  Do you have a chip on your shoulder, or did I miss something?
<Kaas> Yes, you missed Mary Lou nominating D.Yon and it being ignored.
<Patric> Did you second it for her?
<Betsy> I didn't know Dyon had donated a machine for archives.  And I missed it too
<Karen> I didn't see that nomination, Kaas.
<JL> Nominate for the Silver Yo-Yo first -- in #sgchat please.  If nobody, then move to pass the Silver Yo-Yo over this year.
<Jean> I don't see Mary Lou's nomination.
<MargareTZ> I don't see it in sgchat?
<Broomstick> That sounds like it should get an award - for the archive machine
<Kaas> Yes, it was near the beginning
<Jean> For the Digen Award?
<Karen> Sounds like it should, but did we get it into the logged discussion...we can always give another award to them.
<Betsy> It must have been before I joined sgchat
<MargareTZ> then when Yoyos are over we can reopen Tigue?
<Kaas> It was around that time. Mary Lou did not know you were only accepting nominations for the Digen award at the time.
<Jean> I found it--it was for the Tigue Award at the wrong time.
<Patric> Close it, Kaas.
<Broomstick> Why wouldn't we be able to re-open Teague?
<Jean> Mary Lou, where are you?
<Broomstick> Don't we control this?
<Karen> Since it is a technical award...then it would fit for Tigue.
<AMOlson> Indeed
<Betsy> Oh, now I found it.  I think we skipped it because we were working on Digens
<Jean> Why didn't you nominate when we got to Tigues--or Kaas, why didn't you, for that matter?
<JL> gimme ayes please
<Kaas> I didn't realize I got a vote.
<JL> Sure you can vote Kaas
<Karen> You're here, you can vote as far as I know.
<AMOlson> Better hurry Kaas
<JL> Are there any nays?
<Jean> Everyone here can nominate and vote.
<dejla> This is Freedom Hall -- you can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastard...
<Broomstick> Alright, I said I wasn't going to vote -but it was the archives that got me here
<JL> got that right Deb
<Patric> Kaas..  Everything here is pretty much open.  If you have a beef, speak up.  No need for sarcasm or jibes.  Just pipe up!
<JL> Archives definitely deserve something!!!!
<Kaas> Patric, please get off my back.
<Patric> No nays.  Archives are important.
<N`omi> so, what Award would they come under?
<Jean> We've just awarded D. Yon Klempner the Tigue for the archives.
<Patric> Sorry Kaas. 
<JL> The archives can win TWO awards you know.
<AMOlson> OK Jean, I'm horrible confused ... what is the canonical spelling of Teague? (Tigue, Tegue ... argh!)
<Jean> Tigue
<AMOlson> Thanks
<JL> I almost always spell it wrong, so take an average of mine and do it another way.
<AMOlson> LOL JL
<JL> OK, what's the next award -- Silver Yo-Yo?
<ECJB> Can I have a Slinky?
<JL> total silence?
<MargareTZ> would the Buffy project fall under that?
<Jean> Has anything gone through a wild rigamarole to get done?
<AMOlson> I've been called a yoyo
<Karen> Golden yo-yo  (which was AZ's) and Silver (CZ's)
<Jean> No, the Buffy Project was just a bad idea.
<Betsy> Archives are -- what?
<JL> Not sure what Buffy project falls under -- but I think it deserves a recognition.  Will get one too.
<Karen> Records of the list mail we get
<Patric> List archives...  simegen-l for example..
<JL> We have more stuff after the awards you know.
<Jean> NO!
<Broomstick> Buffy project?
<Jean> Unless you want to trash me for thinking of it.
<Jean> It was nothing but a bad idea that failed.
<Karen> Jean, even ideas that don't work, are worth the attempt.
<Broomstick> Oh, so bad no one wants to talk about it, ay?
* dejla admits she has no idea what the Buffy project was, is, or should be...
<MargareTZ> but wasn't there a lot of work put into it?
<Jean> It was a contest that drew no entries.
<Betsy> What did I miss when I lost my connection?
<Karen> If I remember right, it was a contest.
<N`omi> drew two entries
<Patric> Oh please Deb, don't go there..  :)  Yes, it was a contest...  A parody of the TV show...
<AMOlson> Of course the poetry contest got quite a few entries and I have no idea what ever happened to the submissions or the awards
<dejla> Well, if there are no stupid questions, then doesn't it also follow that there are no bad ideas, merely ones that don't work out the first time?
<Jean> Yes--and the winner thought so little of it that she would not answer us and collect her prize.
<Betsy> Oh, the Buffy thing?
<Patric> Write your own, as it were..
<AMOlson> Good grief, Jean
<Jean> But I see no reason to advertise our failures.
<Broomstick> Apollo 13 was a failure, but worth hearing about
<AMOlson> I was just wondering what had happened to the copyright on the poems that had been submitted
<MargareTZ> so you rather insult the worker, Jean?
<Jean> And certainly no reason to REWARD failure.  That is what's wrong with our school system.
<Broomstick> Then again, this project might not be in that category
<Betsy> I'm not sure it was a failure
<Karen> but we learn from failure, to try and not repeat it.
<JL> OK, but let's get on -- we all have other things to do.  Any Nominations for further awards or does someone want to move to close the Awards Nominations?
<Jean> The poetry contest rules are still up--go look at the copyright info.
* N`omi objects
<Broomstick> Sometimes, how you handle mistake/failure is more important than having an easily successful idea
<MargareTZ> are you ruling against any nominations for Buffy, JL?
<Betsy> Absolutely right, Broomstick!
<JL> No, I'm not -- I'm just saying if someone wants to nominate, we get to vote and the Nays will get their official say.
<Betsy> Look at Rimon/Klyd/Digen, who keeps making mistakes and getting back up and trying again
<JL> We can count and see -- not everything has to be perfectly unanimous.
* Patric points out that Challenger is known, but hasn't won any awards for meritorious service, or Most Spectacular Explosion in an Atmosphere...
<N`omi> why does the volunteer who went through soo much work.. get blamed for the *bad idea*?
<Jean> The only award the Buffy contest is eligible for is the Worst Idea of the Year award.  I will accept that--but do we want to embarrass other people with it in the future?
<N`omi> thanks you Margaret! <hugs>
<Betsy> The very fact that the Buffy contest was an immense amount of work and chaos and then didn't generate a lot of entries actually fits a yo-yo award well
<JL> second?
<ChandraMH> Maybe not a Worst Idea - maybe a Least Commercially Viable idea?
<MargareTZ> Jean, I am not nominating the contest, just the person who worked on it!
<Broomstick> Maybe a "It sounded good at the time" award?
<ChandraMH> Lots of good ideas are just not commercially viable but that doesn't make them BAD.
<JL> It wasn't N'omi's idea -- it was Jean and me cooked it up at a WorldCon over breakfast one morning.
<Jean> It was MY bad idea, not yours, N'omi.
<N`omi> no, I was just the worker!
<Betsy> And N'omi worked hard and was made very dizzy...
<N`omi> thanks you, Ann
<Patric> I don't think that's the goal, N'omi..  You get the recognition for the work, its the idea itself that didn't work..
<MargareTZ> and it is the WORK that I think qualifies for a yoyo
<Patric> Not shooting the messenger at all.. ;)
<AMOlson> It was for the work, not the idea
<Betsy> After all, yo-yos are about chaos and dizziness and overwork
<Karen> Makes sense to me.
<Broomstick> Recognition for trying to make something work
<Jean> You did the publicity that brought us the only entries.  If it had been a good idea, your work would have paid off.
<JL> OK, nay's -- now's your chance to go on record.
<JL> I agree with Jean -- N'omi did a terrific job.
<Patric> Not me.  I thought we were awarding the concept...
<JL> any more votres.
<JL> The concept was Jean's mostly -- with brainstorming with me.
<Patric> I figured it out, finally.  Volunteer definitely gets the recognition..
<MargareTZ> Failure is something we all have to face at one time or another
<JL> any more ayes?  I haven't counted but I don't think we have a majority there yet?
<Seanara> Not familiar with the contest so I didn't vote, but I agree that work and effort deserves the recognition.
<Broomstick> abstention - don't count me
<MargareTZ> 6 ayes so far
<Betsy> And 2 abstentions
<N`omi> I must abstain, as it is me
<JL> How many people are we counting duplicates?
<JL> Do I see any nays at all?  If not, so awarded.
<Betsy> I think 17 are logged into #sgschat
<Jean> I want to vote for N'omi's work, but not for the concept.
<AMOlson> That is what we are voting for (were, that is)
<JL> That's why I specified in the motion.
<JL> OK, any more awards -- anyone else who deserves recognition in the permanent archives?
* Patric congratulates N'omi...
<N`omi> thanks you.. you have no idea how much I needed this! <tearfully>
*  JL appreciates N'omi most incredibly much.
<N`omi> thank you very much JL!
<JL> any other awards?
<AMOlson> Congratulations N'omi
<JL> If not will someone move to close the awards?
<Jean> I appreciate your work, N'omi--only wish it had had a better result.
<N`omi> me too, Jean.. me too!!
<Karen> Perhaps N'omi's next project will be more popular.
<JL> gimme some more and we get to the business then
<Broomstick> If you don't risk failure you don't gain success
<N`omi> yes!
<Betsy> I'm sure it will
<JL> That's the right attitude Broomstick! 
<AMOlson> Indeed, Broomstick *grin*
<N`omi> we just gotta raise the age level of the expected participents!
<Jean> We need to do another poetry contest--that one was a success.
<JL> Jean you're on stage and have the gavel.
<Betsy> Or maybe we should run a contest *aimed* at younger participants?
<Broomstick> It's harder to do good poetry than good prose
<JL> We need a volunteer to run contests. 
<Betsy> Yes, most poetry ends up being doggerel
<JL> Let Jean think and organize -- we want to get through this quickly.
<Broomstick> Everyone here heard of Sturgeon's Law?
<N`omi> noo.. what I really learned from that project is what younger ones like to *chat* about, (in over 900 lists..), is not what they will enter a contest to *write* about!
<Betsy> Yes
<JL> And yes, if it's a poetry contest we need someone who knows a little about the subject.  Our judge was a professional (professor too) - for kids we need a school-teacher type.
<JL> Jean's getting started -- watch the #sgchat screen.
<Betsy> Well, I guess we didn't aim at what they will *write* about then
<JL> Yes, that's correct Betsy.  We were off a little in the aim. 
<JL> The fans of the TV show are at the giggle stage of the teens mostly -- not the fanfic stage.
<Broomstick> Recalibrate and fire again
<Betsy> But for a while there was a significant amount of  "Dawson's Creek" fanfic, some of it rather good
<JL> I was on AOL the other day and the boards on the TV shows were really really DEAD.
<Betsy> So maybe we picked the wrong show?  Or maybe we were just a little late?
<JL> all they could think of was how 'cute' one or another actor was. 
<Broomstick> or a little early
<JL> Yes, wrong show -- wrong target -- wrong type of exercise.
<dejla> Well, there is are several sites out there with Buffy fic, but I'm not sure how the age range is on that.
<N`omi> yes! that is basically the theme! adolescent hormones
<JL> It's THE most popular show by so many measures.
<Betsy> Well, when I was reading DC fanfic, some of it *wasn't* MarySue and some of it was well written.
<N`omi> yes, I know.. I did searches through webrings, regular searches, listsm, newsgroups, IRC chats, etc., etc., etc.
<JL> maybe what we need is someone to search around the web and find out where the really good WRITING is being done.
<JL> Then concoct a contest aimed at that group.
<N`omi> serious project that would be
<Betsy> If we want to tackle a TV show popular with adolescents, we need to borrow some bright female adolescent fen of that show who are internet savvy
<MargareTZ> start with WVU
<Betsy> That's how I ran across the DC fanfic.
<N`omi> hmm, thats an idea, Margaret!
<Broomstick> WVU?
<JL> Yes, and my kids are both over 30 and don't have kids yet -- so I'm all out of teenagers which could be why the contest bombed.  Neither Jean nor I hang out with the age-group we're targeting.
<Betsy> My best friend's stepdaughter is the right age & was DC-crazy for a while.  Now she's gone off TV
<Broomstick> By that reasoning RK Rowling shouldn't be writing Harry Potter
<N`omi> I got lots of promises to write.. but no outcome..even with promptings
<CarolC> I'm no help because I don't watch much tv, the 13 year 0.old is studying every night due to an F.  Can't help with many ideas in that section
<Broomstick> Sometimes you just don't quite hit what you aim at.
<JL> What's WVU mean?  (oy, ignorant)
<N`omi> Writers' Village University
<Broomstick> yes!
<MargareTZ> Writers' Village University
<Kaas> If it was me I'd do something I'd heard people asking for.
<Broomstick> remember - no dumb questions!
<MargareTZ> many writers all stages
<Betsy> No, Broomstickk, writing for them isn't the same as getting them to write.
<Betsy> Oh, I thought WVU = West Virginia U
<JL> Oh, yes, -- now I recognize the acronym.
<Broomstick> But you have to be keyed into the adolescent/kid perspective to write stuff they will read
<Broomstick> But you don't require having kids to relate to them
<dejla> Harry Potter is simply a British boarding school story with wizards mixed in. It's a very well-done example of a wish-fulfillment fantasy, and since it's got a male protag, the boys will read it and the girls will as well [boys don't tend to read female protag books]
<N`omi> I am a member of WVU
<Betsy> Yes, but keyed into their perspective isn't the same as knowing what they already are writing about
<JL> Parody is not really a kids thing -- it's a high-discipline difficult challenge.  Kids can do it only when INSPIRED -- not by cold, calculated deliberate effort.  Which is what I asked of them.
<JL> Betsy's right -- find what they are already doing and make a contest out of that.
<N`omi> deciding whom will/should be having sex with whom and why
<Betsy> Someone under 18 was writing DC parodies for a while
<dejla> There is a web site... I can't think of the name of it, though -- which specializes in sarcastic comments re: various teen-aimed shows. They're particularly nasty on Seventh Heaven, and they're not a lot friendlier to Buffy or DC.
<JL> Yes, some young people are VERY talented!!!  Those are ones I'm very interested in getting into the school.
<Betsy> also, maybe we should aim at college kids  instead of HS age
<Broomstick> >sigh<   even when a teenager I never read about teenage stuff - already moved on to adult subjects
<JL> Good parody has no overtones of sarcasm or put-downs.  Read the examples I chose. 
<N`omi> yes, that is why I said aim to an older age group!
<JL> Jean's putting up the stock awards.
<MargareTZ> how about older people?
<Betsy> And that's why I am thinking college kids, as they are much better at parody

Logs edited by Karen MacLeod

©2003 Sime~Gen Inc.
For questions or comments on the content of this page: contact the Historian .
Send feedback about this domain to Sime~Gen Inc.
For technical difficulties with this page, please contact the Webmaster.
Check out the Meeting that goes with this chat.

Take a look at the Awards.

Return to Main Chat Page