Sime~Gen, Inc. Annual Meeting - 1999

This file containes a record of the first corporate meeting of Sime~Gen™, Inc.

The record of the meeting is divided into two parts: one for awards, and one for other new business.

This file contains the segment of the meeting where items of new business were discussed

At the bottom of this file is a link to the log of the awards meeting.

    - compiled by Karen

JL -- Jacqueline Lichtenberg
Jean Lorrah -- Jean
Marge Robbins -- Marge R
Jenn Vesperman -- Jenn V
Karen (Litman) MacLeod -- KLitman
DonJarami -- Don Jaramillo
LadyEliza -- Eliza Leahy
kbaichtal -- Kaas Baichtal

Paulab -- Paula Burson
Margaret -- Margaret Carr
fishydu -- Wendy Fisher
bgray -- L. Bruce Gray
ECJB -- Eric Berlin
Leigh -- Leigh Kimmel
cowan -- John Cowan

(Some people ask us not to publish their names)

New Year Chat 1999 - Business Meeting

New Year Chat 1999 - Business

JL: If not we'll go on to NEW BUSINESS.
JL: Again, calling for Old Business.
ECJB: Thanks for the Yo-Yo... Now how do I throw it and get it back?
KLitman: None that I know of
JennV: None that I know of.
Ddraig`: What did I miss?
JL: Calling for the last time for OLD BUSINESS.
JennV: Awards
bgray: ECJB, The trick is to get it to come back next year :-:
JL: We will now move on to NEW Bussinesssss!!!
LadyEliza: that is one long yoyo string...
JennV: Thanks, but no thanks, bgray. :) I'd like to not have so many awards next year. :) it'll mean I've not done so much. :)
JL: Jean -- want to tell them what you DID yesterday? (actually WE deserve a Yo-Yo for all this paperwork with SGInc.
JL: Yea, yoyo strings can strangle you.
JL: Jean?
* JennV thinks that remark will come back to haunt her.
Seanara: Both JL and Jean deserve mega-awards for all their work...
Jean: Yesterday I mailed the articles of incorporation for Sime~Gen Inc. to the KY Secretary of State.
Margaret: Writer's Cramp Award?
Jean: When they come back, we will have our official date of birth.
JL: No - form-filler-outer awards.
bgray: How long is that expected to be?
JennV: Wheeee!
* JennV was there when JL signed them.
Jean: Should be just a couple of weeks.
JL: Jenn was here in NY when I signed the Incorporation papers. Tell them Jenn.
KLitman: I'd suspect a month given how governments work.
bgray: Will that be a non-profit, or what?
Jean: NO!
Margaret: Hope they are faster than California!
cowan: Congratulations!
Jean: We need to MAKE MONEY!
Ddraig`: Jean, will you do a chart on the coporation then?
bgray: I'm not sure whether to say
JL: No, but I will.
Jean: This is NOT just a very expensive hobby for Jacqueline and me.
bgray: "Break a Leg"
bgray: or
bgray: "Good Luck"
JL: We need to get our server onto a paying commercial basis, and FAST.
* JennV smiles at JL. I mentioned that I was there when they signed them.
fishydu: Congrats!
Jean: Thank you.
JennV: Err. When you signed them. Whatever. :)
KLitman: Wish I could have been your Notary Public, but I'm only registered to do so in New Jersey
Margaret: It's a big step!
Jean: We have put in and will put in lots of hard work.
Jean: now we NEED some luck.
bgray: ditto for Virginia
Margaret: wb Leigh
Jean: We have lots of plans for
Leigh: I'm back -- computer locked up on me when I checked something else, and I had to reboot, then reconnect to the server and convince ircle to connect properly (apparently the prefs file got corrupted in the crash).
Jean: What we are doing is going around Robin Hood's barn.
Leigh: pray tell
JL: We're talking about Sime~Gen Inc. -- official birthdate will be sometime in January '99
bgray: What will swich to commercial server do for you?
Seanara: YES!!!
Jean: We cannot publish our books the old way.
Leigh: isn't that the truth!
Jean: We hope it will eventually allow us to publish again--
Jean: in a new way.
Leigh: let's hope so -- the conventional way sure isn't working
JL: Go ahead, Jean, tell them some of what we've been planning.
Jean: We will have to take (urk) advertising.
Jean: You may hate what we are doing--
ECJB: Gives me VERTigo just thinking about it...
Jean: but we hope you hate not getting new S~G stories from us even worse.
* Seanara makes a face
Leigh: advertising is tolerable if the alternative would be silence
Seanara: True
JL: the alternative would definitely be silence.
Jean: Folks, we are going to do this.
Margaret: By new century at least!
Jean: We are sick and tired of having the doors of publishing slammed in our faces,
Jean: and we are pros.
JL: That machine in Australia has got to pay for itself, at the very least, and all the tech work that goes into it, and THEN all the other work that makes you stories to read.
LadyEliza: Silver awards updated to
Margaret: Just don't use the floaters like Geocities does, PLEASE
Jean: Sorry--we have the evil idea that the work we were put on earth to do ought to support us.
JL: Thank you Eliza for making such quick updates to the awards sites -- oh, thank you.
Jean: There will be banner ads,
Margaret: even with floaters, better than silence
Jean: just as soon as we can get them in place.
ECJB: Can I help? I don't have a PC. I only have an Amiga 500, but I can do ASCII files then transfer them over...
JL: Margaret - what do you mean "floaters" -- second browser windows?
Jean: We start by getting into banner programs.
Jean: Floaters are those awful top-half-of-the-screen things that Netscape and Geocities put in front of what you want to see.
Jean: We won't have those.
Jean: Look at the books on
Jean: Their ads are the model for what we intend to do.
Jean: As I was saying,
Jean: we will start with banner-exchange programs.
Margaret: bb banners are pasted in place, don't chase you, they're ok
bgray: Sandra just made some good banners.
Jean: That way the _single_ banner ad on each page will be there from the beginning.
cowan: My quote of the day, from Mark Rosenfelder:
cowan: Single greatest thing about the web: the democratization of information: anyone can get their stuff out for the world to
cowan: look at, if it cares to. Single worst thing: With the glut of material, the world's asking price for perusing your stuff is
cowan: now $0.
Jean: You will be used to seeing one at the top of each page, and you can ignore them just as you do on all the other pages you visit.
Jean: We refuse to be told not to do this.
Jean: We refuse to be told it won't work.
Jean: If we give up now, you will NEVER see another new S~G story.
Seanara: I say, do whatever you have to do.
bgray: Look at:
Leigh: that's why we'll almost have to move to an advertising model, rather like commercial TV, for what JL calls the "fiction delivery system" (I wrote an article about it way back in 96, and I think I got it saved to floppy before my old hard drive crashed)
KLitman: I agree, anything to get the novels going again.
Jean: Now--all the sites that possibly can must be moved to
Jean: Instructions will be forthcoming in the next few weeks.
Jean: If your site is on Geocities, Geocities, not, gets credit for each visitor to your site.
Ddraig`: Good Morning Zoe!
Jean: If we do not get enough visitors, we will never build up enough "impressions" per month to get paid advertising.
KLitman: I see your point Jean.
Leigh: Could the Tecton Star pages (which I took off my own server because I didn't want to risk the copyright protections for JL accidentally spilling over onto any of my own stuff) be put on I'd hesitated to ask because I knew that Jenn and Dancer were horrifically busy with moving and everything.
Jean: Each time someone clicks to a new page on a site, that is an "impression."
Margaret: Exchange would be Sime~Gen has banner on other site and other site has banner on Sime~Gen?
JennV: What's the Tecton Star pages?
Leigh: Sounds like the typical banner exchange system.
Jean: This also means breaking each site up into as many pages as possible.
Leigh: Tecton Star, the Sime~Gen APA (Amateur Press Association).
Jean: We start with a typical banner exchange system.
Seanara: If Margaret is right, that would be good publicity for S~G.
JennV: Pretty much anything can be moved to, IF JL and Jean are happy with it.
JennV: Margaret, banner exhanges don't earn us money.
Jean: Once we build enough "impressions," we hope to get an ad agency to pay to run ads where the old exchange banners were.
JennV: Ah. If JL & Jean say so - which they probably would - yes.
Margaret: no, but hits build
Jean: But the banner exchange will bring more people to our sites.
Jean: Our job is to keep them.
Leigh: I set up some pages describing them, and ran a test on my own server. However, since I wasn't sure how broadly "site" would be interpreted in the official copyright statement, I broke the links to them from my webpage and intended to find a site to put them on by themselves, but then all my free time disappeared.
Margaret: Do you have some in mind? Should I ask Bob?
Eliza-Zoe: Zoe is getting on her own computer
Leigh: TS has been from its inception non-fiction only -- mostly natter by the various members. This saves us from copyright difficulties.
JL: I just checked out the test website recommended above that is full of banners.
JL: maybe we should have a banner contest?
bgray: What did you think JL?
LadyEliza: Leigh - can I offer you some space?
Jean: As I was saying, we build hits with the banner exchange. Once visitors come to our sites, it is our job to keep them through many pages, and then GET THEM TO COME BACK. We want them to come back often.
JL: I just checked out the test website recommended above that is full of banners.
JL: maybe we should have a banner contest?
bgray: What did you think JL?
LadyEliza: Leigh - can I offer you some space?
Leigh: sure -- send me the "keys" (site information and password) and I'd be glad to take you up on it.
JennV: For the record: Jacqueline and I went on an errand one day. Hopped into the car, hunted down a bank so we could get some cash for me (I think) and also to find a notary so Jacqueline could sign the paperwork. But at the bank, there was no notary to be found. So we got into the car again and went to the town hall - which was being rebuilt. Construction everywhere, and I almost tripped several times, my stick kept slipping, and we walked far too far for me.
Jean: A major push is to get people browsing through to sign up for the NEWSLETTER, so that every two to four weeks they get a reminder of our neat website.
JL: Eliza - yes we're planning the "other" half of this site to be general sf/f and eventually bigger than the S~G fanfic profic sections
Netdancer: Has anyone added S~G sites to the search engines?
bgray: Sounds like you deserved the Yo-Yo to me...
Jean: Now, we have fiction, we have reviews, we have games, we plan a send-a-greeting-card program.
Margaret: General S/F???
Jean: But we have to get people to come BACK often,
Leigh: I'll be doing the Tecton Star one once I get it on its own server and into reasonably good shape.
Jean: yes, we will have reviews of general SF
JennV: Ken, the search engine is temporarily not working.
JL: Yes, we're on a lot of search engines thanks to our industrious fans who know how to do that -- Leigh, Robyn, and Jenn have gotten us a LOT of publicity.
bgray: The webrings are good for getting people to come back.
JennV: :will tell her story in a bit.
Jean: and the writing workshop, which is not confined to S~G.
KLitman: We used to take reviews in CZ
JL: We can put TECTON STAR ONLINE onto you know.
Jean: Webrings--yes--very important.
JL: We plan to have various sites linked into various sorts of webrings that are appropriate for them.
Netdancer: Jenn - I meant Yahoo, Altavista, excite: Added us to the Big Guys.
Leigh: I'd certainly be willing to do reviews -- I do them regularly in my TS zine and my zine for Obloids (a general interest sf APA) and I have some of them on my website.
Jean: Everything you can think of to get people to come, put it on your site.
bgray: Heck, I'd contribute game reviews.
JennV: I've @#&*$@#$ing TRIED to get us onto Yahoo!
Leigh: If you do a lot of webrings, give them their own page, because they're slooooow to load -- I have to do that with my own webrings page.
JL: Yes, we're on Yahoo, (or were) Altavista and Excite
bgray: I'd love to be the first with a review of the S/G RPG :-:
JennV: We DID get onto Yahoo?!
Jean: Okay--back to fast-loading pages.
* JennV smiles at Bgray. :)
Margaret: hi Zoe
Netdancer: The RPG team is working ::
Zoe: Hello!
JennV: I know who'll be the first to see the finished article.. of the RPG, that is. :)
JL: Well, my own FIRST webpage (that Marge made for me) was on Yahoo for quite a while. Not sure if itself made it.
Margaret: Have Text Option!
Leigh: absolutely essential -- info I have says that for each additional second it takes to load, you lose a huge percentage of your audience
JennV: AH
Jean: We have to divide each site into many fast-loading pages. Not long pages with internal links, but short, snappy pages from one to two screens in length.
Margaret: Make any music optional
Jean: This is better for our visitors--no long waits for loads.
bgray: Yep. Intro pages should be kept small.
Leigh: definitely!
Jean: It is also better for us--more "impressions."
JL: also our fiction files are huge LUMPS -- they have to be broken up. they take forever to download.
bgray: Music should be able to be turned off if desired.
LadyEliza: I was thinking of doing a series of classes on design Jean - do you think that would be welcome/helpful/used?
Jean: Win-win situation.
Leigh: there's nothing more embarrassing than to be surfing in a public place (like a library) and have music auto-download on a page
Jean: ALL pages should be kept small.
Jean: Not just intros.
JL: We don't intend to have "music" on pages that you don't know WILL HAVE music before you click into them.
bgray: Lots of people who have done books on the web use "chapters" for divisions.
JL: Do you all know about the professionally recorded Sime~Gen song that's now posted online? It's not on the S~G webring yet.
Margaret: not too small, irritating to have to keep clicking next page
Jean: A page of continuous text of more than three screens should become two or more pages with "Next" buttons.
Leigh: I'd be willing to attend your webdesign classes -- I'm trying to make pages that will pull people into my "bookstore" area
Jean: Chapters are WAY too long.
Seanara: No, JL -- what and where is it?
cowan: Jean, does that mean that fiction pieces should be broken up into more than one page? I (as the Quakers say) "have a concern" with that.
cowan: The frustration of reading fiction while going click-wait-read-click-wait-read
Jean: Yes--break fiction up into 2-3 screen segments with "Next" buttons.
JL: Eliza -- you want to TEACH WEB DESIGN ONLINE?? We could make a place for THAT, for sure.
LadyEliza: Leigh - what's your email?
cowan: is too much for me, not to mention that middle-aged eyes find 600 dpi print a lot
Leigh: I think you could have an option on fiction -- either download it all at once or in small bites -- let the reader make the choice, not the creator
Jean: No frustration on text. It loads quickly.
cowan: easier than 75 dpi screens.
Jean: Remove cluttered slow-loading backgrounds, etc.
Ddraig`: The issue would be that the download and read option does not generate hits.
Jean: Plain text loads fast.
Jean: *Sigh* Let's discuss the download and read option later, okay?
cowan: Professionally recorded is fine, but the downloaded version is unintelligible.
Jean: Meanwhile, we are trying to make money by giving things away free--the new method of free enterprise!
KLitman: yes. I agree with John
cowan: Motto of Perl: There's More Than One Way To Do It.
Seanara: JL, who recorded it? Group/artist name, please?
LadyEliza: yep - but is that the only one that's available?
LadyEliza: ah
JL: The song comes out FINE on my equipment -- but it has been SHRUNK so it lost some definition. I think we now have the words to the song posted on that website too.
Margaret: works for WVU, Jean
JL: If we get a real sound technician who has the time and energy to mess with this, it will make a wondrous addition.
cowan: With respect I suggest that that is because you already know what the words are, which has been proven many times to improve comprehension.
Jean: has two sections, the commercial section, where you are all welcome to put sites from which you sell anything you have to sell (contact Jacqueline and/or me)--
* JennV smiles at JL. "This isn't the first time something works on one person's equipment but not another's."
JennV: Let's all sing the Web song: things look different on other people's screens!
JL: We also are looking for a method of posting sheet music. I found a zillion "music" sites, and haven't had time to look, but I betcha someone has a better way to do it than gif files made from a scanner.
Jean: and the fan section where most of what you have will go (contact Eliza).
LadyEliza: which is a lesson in design - or is that desing?
Margaret: groan
LadyEliza: not last time I looked JL
Jean: Each of THOSE sections is divided into in-Territory (connected to S~G) and out-Territory (whatever you want that is not connected to S~G).
JL: We have so many creative musicians, we want to showcase their talents -- but not throw this stuff at you without warning. If you go into an animation, or sound site, you will do it on purpose, knowing what you're apt to find there.
LadyEliza: I really want to hear from everyone who has a site
LadyEliza: links are going to have to be changed at the very least
LadyEliza: we need pages that are upgraded
Jean: Very few rules. No pornography. No hate sites. No multi-level marketing or other illegal schemes.
bgray: I've got pointers on my SF links page to Sime/Gen - that will help a little,
Jean: Whew!
Jean: Any questions?
cowan: MLM is not illegal: maybe sleazy, not illegal. I think you mean Ponzi/pyramid. As long as something is being sold, it's legal.
bgray: I'll probably link to Sime/Gen with one of my wife's banners :-:
LadyEliza: don't groan - it will be alright
Margaret: no sleazy!
Jean: We don't want sleazy or questionable.
Leigh: how will we distinguish between pornography and such things as technical discussions of Sime~Gen sexuality or stories that include mature situations?
* JennV shakes her head. "The site is in Australia. The rules are sufficiently different between AUstralia and the US that *I* don't want an MLM site on my machine."
JennV: "I don't want to afford the lawyer.
Leigh: or distinguishing between artistic nudity and pornography (as an art student, I have to bring that up)?
Margaret: JL and Jean each have other series, will there be something re them?
bgray: You own the machine and site - you make the rules.
Ddraig`: One thing that came up in discussion last night. What's the difference between steamy romance, erotica, and pornography.
LadyEliza: but we still don't want it :)
Jean: I will be putting something about Savage Empire up when I have the time.
LadyEliza: bgray -
JennV: If it's Sime~Gen nudity/sexuality, and it's not patently illegal (no representations of non-physically-mature bodies involved in a sexual situation please!) I'm willing to host it.
KLitman: a very valid point Don.....
Leigh: And it differs from person to person -- John Ruskin would draw the line at a different point than I would
Margaret: Great!
bgray: yep.
Jean: What Jenn is willing to post is not pornography. How's that for a definition?
JL: Ddraig -- the distinction with pornography is what my WORK post today is supposed to lead into teaching you to spot and avoid, believe it or not. The distinction is (technically and structurally) one of INTEGRATION OF THE STRUCTURAL ELEMENTS OF THE ART.
JL: The "legal" defn of porn is something else again, and yes, since the machine is in Australia I suppose it has to conform to THOSE local rules.
LadyEliza: Yes - is my art considered to be "porn" if they are naked?
JennV: Not by me.
bgray: What about "kren" stories, JL?
Leigh: I wouldn't either
JennV: Though if it's not something you'd show your kids, Eliza, we'll put it behind a kids-barrier. :)
Jean: Any nudity and any textual discussion of the sex act will have to be in sub-pages.
LadyEliza: I think maybe this is something to be discussed on the morals list?
Margaret: JL, you have TWO other series I love. What about them?
Netdancer: Porn is defined in general by 'community standards'. (If I remember right) In this case we'd be the community?
cowan: "Pornography" does not have a legal definition, at least in the US.
Jean: We will have to have disclaimers.
cowan: I have seen nothing on any SG site Iw would keep from my daughter (11.5)
Jean: Gotta dump the log again--right back,
JL: "Kren" series has been spoken for by another web-publisher, so I'll do all this other work first, and THEN worry about Kren.
Ddraig`: Jenn... one aspect of non-physically-mature. What about the ages of maturity in Sime~Gen.
Ddraig`: What were the ages of Sergei and Risa?
bgray: Disclaimers may not be enough in some US communities.
JL: meanwhile, wouldn't you folks like to get to read the other 5 or 6 completed and ready to publish NOVELS that I've written and been unable to sell?
LadyEliza: ok with me - Jenn decides
JennV: Ok. Anything which we'd let our kids see, I'm completely comfortable with.
Margaret: YES! YES! YES!
Leigh: I'd absolutely *love* to see the new stuff that's been shut out of the market!
LadyEliza: hey - my kids like my work :)
Zoe: Yes please.
JennV: Anything we wouldn't let our kids see, I'm willing to have if it's behind a barrier PROVIDED it does not breach international law.
JennV: AFAIK, international law is broken with: child porn, animal porn.
Jean: At the moment no one has successfully made an Internet censorship law.
KLitman: Silly question --- of course we want to read the unpublished 5 or 6 novels.
Margaret: PASSword protect anything you question at all
Jean: If the U.S. does, we will deal with it when it happens.
Leigh: Ever since I got my first copy of VPN way back in 88 or 89 (the long pink sheet -- still have it in some of my files) I've been salivating for the worlds you just gave us a glimpse of
JL: yes, Jenn that was what I wanted to suggest -- a level barrier of some sort that would provide controlled access --
Jean: We want to write those stories.
JL: I don't know what the criterion would be since we can't take credit card numbers yet.
Jean: This is the best chance we have had in ten years actually to do so--
JennV: Note, though, that Jean has the legal ownership of the web site for administrative purposes, so it's actually NOT MY word that needs to be final. It's Jean's neck on the block. Mine just goes there with her.
KLitman: I'm sure I speak for most of us when I say "We want to read them."
Jean: --other than becoming dilettantes who treat writing as a hobby.
Margaret: You can password without selling
Ddraig`: Regarding international law on child porn, the age of consent varies greatly between countries.
Jean: In a few weeks it will be Sime~Gen Inc.'s neck on the line,
Leigh: A lot of sites with mature content do it pretty much on the honor system -- they have an entry page that says you certify you are of legal age and are willing to receive material with mature content
cowan: Sorry, Dancer, the community is that in which you are being prosecuted, which could be *anywhere*. Even in Missisippi, although service of process would be difficult.
cowan: (Substitute wherever highly conservative folks live in Australia.)
Jean: and a corporation doesn't have a neck.
cowan: There is none. What you have to worry about is thousands of local laws.
cowan: Nothing merely textual counts as child pornography in the U.S. There have to be images.
cowan: OTOH the use of actual children is not required.
JennV: Ddraig is not Dancer. :)
* Netdancer nods to Leigh.
Jean: As we are not going to allow kiddie porn, this question does not affect us.
JennV: Dancer is my husband, who is currently at work earning (among other things) our netlink. :)
JL: That's one way to ascertain if a person is "adult" -- if they have a credit card. But kids get their parent's and lots of adults don't have them. *sigh* so i don't know how it could be done. PERSONALLY, I would like to have a section where the steamy-stuff could find an audience -- I don't object to raunchy and steamy.
cowan: "Neither a soul to be damned nor a body to be kicked." But that won't protect the prinicipals from criminal prosecution by someone who decides to make an example of you (or me).
cowan: Oops, soory.
LadyEliza: lets drop the pornography question - I don't think anyone here is going to be putting up porn
LadyEliza: JL - I don't have a credit card and I'm adult
cowan: It *can't* be done. One of the whole points of the Supreme Ct. decision in _Aclu v Reno_ was that there's no way to tell.
Seanara: I have one -- but no way am I entering any of its numbers on the Net, even on a secure server.
JL: That's what I said Eliza -- lots of adults don't have credit cards. And we aren't equiped (yet) to accept them.
LadyEliza: technically adult anyway
JennV: She knows.
bgray: and I don't want my card info all over the net.
Jean: Let's not worry about porn unless a case comes up, okay?
cowan: Indecent material is legal, period.
Margaret: Do you have an ATM card LadyEliza?
cowan: But anyone can be prosecuted for anything at any time.
JennV: We can sort out the steamy-image issue behind the scenes - we seem to have some sort of community of /wishes/ here, even though we have no community of solution.
JL: There you see? So what test could be generally acceptable. I simply don't know.
cowan: Agreed, Jean.
Margaret: There is more than enough without it!
LadyEliza: yes Margaret - but that isn't a credit card
LadyEliza: that is a debit card - and it's broke!
Ddraig`: I had my ATM card converted to a debit (visa check) card.
KLitman: ATM cards here in the states work like credit cards.
Margaret: I can use mine where Mastercard is accepted
Ddraig`: One reason was so I could order online.
JL: At any rate - we START building this thing with the generally staid and acceptable stuff we already have -- and of which we have plenty MORE to come.
JL: And we go on from there.
cowan: There *is no generally acceptable test*.
Jean: We are not going to take credit cards because we are not going to sell physical objects. We HOPE to sell advertising.
Zoe: I zdon't have one either, but i wouldn't be putting any of my card numbers on the net.
LadyEliza: JL - if you want a outlink to another site for the steamy stuff - I'd be happy to host it
Jean: If YOU put a site in the Keon Emporium or the out-Territory Marketplace, it is YOUR problem to take credit cards or not.
Jean: We WILL provide a secure server.
* JennV wheees. Starts checking for freeware linux secure server software. :)
Jean: YOU will probably have to provide alternate methods for those who refuse to give their credit card numbers on the WWW.
JennV: (no, I knew that one was coming. Just not when.)
JL: Oh, surprised jenn -- ooops.
* JennV smiles. "Yup."
JL: There are services now which can out-source credit card taking.
Jean: Not until we have someone who wants to open a shop that takes credit cards.
JL: Jenn -- what I think we MAY want is cybercash or other things like it.
Jean: That is PROBABLY months away.
Margaret: check/money orders require lots of man/woman power to take care of
* JennV chuckles. "But I want to know it now."
JennV: Hm.
bgray: :)
fishydu: Banks will set up automatic deposits for you and then report to you within 24 hours on checks.
Jean: Yes--probably any of US would use one of these other sources rather than go through all the hassles of setting ourselves up.
JL: For example, the issue that was raised a while back about providing FICTION DOWNLOAD in lumps for offline reading -- if we did provide that option, we would have to charge a cybercash fee.
Margaret: Will need multiple accounts -- international
Jean: The business hassles of businesses on our site are not our problem.
JL: What we intend to do is to provide the novels for PURCHASE in regular publisher's editions via (barnesnoble whatever).
JennV: Aussies are used to having to deal with @^#*@! lack-of-service from cybershops.
bgray: Sounds like an issue that should come up when it happens.
Jean: It is not the problem of the landlord how the store owner arranges credit.
Margaret: best bet!
JennV: I tried to buy a particular thing the other day - and everyone who had it wouldn't deal with an OS order. So.
Jean: So there is no competition.
Margaret: OS???
Jean: Right now.
JL: Jean is correct though -- various shops on our Market sites will all have their own perferred methods of monetary exchange. No two alike, I'd bet.
Jean: OverSeas
bgray: And no universal exchange medium.
JennV: Sorry. Australianism - everywhere international is overseas. :)
JL: It's not so much that it is not our WORRY or responsibility, but that there are so many choices and businesses all have their own preferences. We can't straitjacket businesses.
Margaret: ok, friends are key there
Jean: Especially little specialty shops need not worry about having to post, "Sorry, no orders outside Australia," or "No orders outside the U.S. and Canada."
KLitman: friends can always secure and ship the merchandise you want if you can't get it yourself.
Jean: I have sent fanzines virtually everywhere in the world.
* JennV saw the postage charges on those boxes you and JL sent me, Karen.
* JennV won't LET you two do that again in any sort of hurry!
Jean: If you WANT to sell everywhere, accept money orders.
Jean: It's slow, but it works.
LadyEliza: Jenn - if it's in the states you could probibly get someone here to get it and send it to you
JL: So our plans are to plan for to host an entire community full of variety, and not to hamper anyone in the creative development of their business, enterprise, endeavor etc.
LadyEliza: what Karen said :)
KLitman: Can't stop me Jenn....
KLitman: I want to do that.
JL: yeah, Jenn -- we have this (irrational) feeling that you are deprived living way out in the boonies, even though we know you live in a nice sized city.
fishydu: I want to provide business consulting services to all you creative people so that you'll make money instead of just making other people happy
JL: So we feel we have to provide you with the advantages we have.
Jean: All this is going to take some time.
Jean: But if we don't start, then we will never have anything.
JL: fishydu -- did I hear a VOLUNTEER out there at the edge of things where you are?
cowan: Amen!
Jean: Note that I didn't say we would never finish--we don't expect ever to finish!
bgray: Please? :-:
JL: Because we could certainly use some creative input from someone who knows more than we do.
fishydu: Yep, volunteer for six months...then, when your making money, for pay
Margaret: Are you picking brains of people who have survived ?
bgray: Web pages are -never- -finished-...
JennV: Whoohoo!
ECJB: Did I hear someone say VOLUNTEER? What can I do?
Jean: Sime~Gen Inc. will be a living thing: if it stops growing, it dies.
LadyEliza: sounds good tome Fishy
fishydu: Or nine months, if it takes that...contract so that I don't get money till AFTER you do
cowan: Kel komerex, khesterex (Old Klingon for "Grow or die")
JL: fishydu - we gotta talk business sometime here. And ECJB I heard you over there.
Jean: We have no idea how long it will take to start getting money.
fishydu: Or, barter...this is a small enough community for barter
JennV: But if you're a business consultant..
JL: fishydu (in case you guys didn't know) is known to us as having been living off of a business she runs herself with her own brains and hands.
JL: That's something Jean and I have not accomplished.
fishydu: Of course you don't...but if you contract that you don't pay until AFTER you're showing a profit, you should be ok
JL: We've run businesses, but not lived off them.
bgray: another volunteer...
CptButton: My apologies for barging into a channel I am not welcome on.
fishydu: Not loan against earned after profitability reached
CptButton: I am told Jenn Vesperman seconded my nomination for an award.
Leigh: Nonsense, CptButton, you're always welcome here!
bgray: Welcome CptButton!
JL: You're welcome CAPTAIN -- someone tell him he WON
ECJB: G'day, Captain!
KLitman: You are always welcome Captain......
CptButton: Because it is therefore tainted by this gross hypocrisy, I reject it totally.
JL: More than welcome.
KLitman: Capt. wants nothing to do with us.
ECJB: Hmmm... Hope it wasn't my fault...
Jean: I hope it was Capt. Button's idea of a joke.
cowan: Have awards been made yet? I saw nominations in email.
JL: fishydu - we have to talk where there's no crosstalk. Right now it's 5pm my time and my brain is turning to pudding. But we are definitely interested in exploring options with you.
KLitman: nope....he was serious
LadyEliza: no it wasn't Jean
JL: No, Jean he wasn't joking.
JennV: What gross hypocrisy? Oh well.. I don't think I'm ever going to find out.
KLitman: Captain Button WAS NOT Joking.
* Netdancer sighs gently. "He thinks Jenn and Dancer have it in for him."
Paulab: ~soothing~ nager, anyone?
Margaret: JL, Jean, I'd like to try to get one (or both) of you together with Bob of WVU -- he's built a community pretty well
* Netdancer thanks Paulab. ::
* ECJB relaxes in the "warm" fields...
Paulab: anytime
JL: ECJB -- I don't know enough about you to have any idea what you would find among us that would be FUN for you. But if you could help Karen out, as you have been - help her with the physical parts of the jobs she's taken on - that would be an IMMENSE contribution to this whole disorganization we all love so much.
JennV: Karen, don't edit it for my sake. He may have mentioned my name, but .. shrug:. Doesn't worry me.
JL: Karen -- yes, please, edit the chitchat down to make some sense -- this is a historic document.
JL: OK, do you all have some better idea what Jean and I are up to with now? Any questions?
Jean: One thing. Jacqueline and I have VERY limited seed money.
Jean: If you bring outsiders in as consultants--
JL: Less, than limited, I would say. We're about 1,000 percent UNDERCAPITALIZED.
Jean: they will expect to be paid as consultants.
Margaret: or barter
JL: The log gets posted to the web -- wherever last year's log went. And announced to the List.
fishydu: What, outsider, not me..besides I offered for free.
KLitman: barter sounds good.
Jean: No--friend Bob.
Jean: Wendy, I think YOU have a vested interest in more S~G books.
LadyEliza: May I suggest that you use what talent you have on the list FIRST. Before bringing anyone outside in email the list and ask if anyone can do what you want first?
Jean: Bob doesn't.
JL: With the problem of PAYING PEOPLE to do things -- don't ever forget that there's a long, long line already. Jenn and Dancer are putting professional time into this. The hardware and their time are HUGE OVERHEAD expenses.
Margaret: what
Jean: Doesn't have an interest in S~G, and even if he does, is not here to volunteer.
bgray: What does someone need done?
* JennV chuckles. "The hardware isn't so huge. The time is."
JL: Wendy - we have to talk privately about this -- you, me and Jean.
Netdancer: I will be joining Jenn and Dancer on the tech frontlines, soon as my skills are up to par. ::
JennV: Jean, you REALLY don't want to know Dancer's consulting fee. :)
JL: Jenn/Dancer time is worth more than even THEY know at this point.
Jean: No, I don't want to know
Jean: If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it.
Jean: And we can't afford it.
JL: Netdancer -- yes, I heard you were rapidly acquiring skills, and here is a great place to practice.
JL: For TECHWORK all we can pay right now is putting YOUR NAME/LOGO and advertising banner on
Jean: We KNOW how lucky we are to have you, and other people, too.
JL: If this scheme works, we will be getting you real paid work because we will have showcased your talents prominently.
* Netdancer noddles to JL! :: "I work free for family."
JL: Think what could become if that movie script sells!!! (and things do keep happening on that front)
Leigh: that would be wonderful!
Jean: Yes, we are TRYING to create a buzz that will sell the movie.
JL: So Jenn has to get me a logo from them to put on our TOP PAGE (which is shaping up nicely) and everyone else has to remember to SIGN THEIR WORK.
cowan: But remember Asimov's First Law of Hollywood:
cowan: Whatever happens, nothing happens!
* JennV smiles at Jean. "Dancer and I are getting paid in the improvement in my ability to write, and in my developing friendships which don't take massive amounts of stress."
Jean: Asimov was not always right.
Jean: Movies DO get made, just not from HIS books.
LadyEliza: WHAT!
cowan: Obviously not, or there's be no movies at all. But as a rule of thumb, it isn't bad.
Leigh: His books are generally too cerebral to make good movies -- too much of them is intellectual, not amenable to the visual medium
fishydu: Even Heinlein books have been made into movies...although they fouled them up
Leigh: that's because they didn't understand the underlying philosophical positions
cowan: That didn't prevent people from optioning them, and even a script being written.
JL: Oh, and I am making a section for biographies, resumes, personal advertising of our contributors that will be linked off our top page. I'll need our workers (webmasters etc) to send me that material by attached file (in html would be great) -- ELIZA I need that kind of thing from you -- I've seen yours on the web, but you may want to make one just for this purpose, as VirtualTecton webmaster.
Jean: If we get a movie OPTION, that's MONEY we can use to finance the publication of new BOOKS. A movie doesn't have to be made for the writers to get money.
bgray: They're making "The Foundation Trilogy" right now...
cowan: My point is: counting on anything to happen because of a movie is a mug's game.
Leigh: I can send a resume -- I already have one html'ed and on my own page
* JennV nods to Cowan. "We know."
cowan: Maybe so, but when I see the movie, then I'll believe it.
KLitman: You probably won't need my resume right now. I'm not doing much for the web.
Jean: We are hoping that things will happen because of SIMEGEN.COM. We want it to become a major entertainment site in its own right.
JL: We're not "counting on" the movie -- we're getting ready just in case it might happen. But even if it doesn't, what we can build here will be more than worthwhile for everyone involved. One aim we have is to build this thing so nicely that we get mentioned in the slick internet mags, and then on TV.
JL: Oh, yes, Karen we need your resume.
bgray: Does the words "made for TV" mean anything anymore :-:
JL: Leigh, likewise, email me that resume file.
LadyEliza: ta
Jean: If we can get enough on the site in the next couple of months that we can go ahead with the advertising,
JL: If we CAN build the traffic as fast as we think we can, it will be valuable for folks to have their bios/resumes on our site.
Jean: we plan a major Web Event in July.
Leigh: I'll make a note of it and e-mail it as soon as I'm off IRC (after what happened earlier, I'm scared that Eudora will crash my computer)
JL: It's one way we can pay for all this work.
JL: We have the movie in TV submission too at the moment. We're covering all bases. We're also working on a tv series concept.
Leigh: I'll be looking forward to it
Jean: Please don't ask what right now--it's an original idea that has never been done, and we don't want to see someone else doing it on a big famous website before we do it.
JL: That is we would be if I weren't doing everything else! I'm BEHIND on my column, too. I spent two hours this morning working up the syllabus for a 6 hour seminar I'm doing on Karmic Astrology.
LadyEliza: series woudl be great! As long as it comes to Australia
Ddraig`: Excuse me for bugging out a little early. I'm going to head to the store.
Ddraig`: I'll keep my log going and catch up when i get back.
Jean: But we will need to start advertising early enough to hit all possible places of promotion, but too late for someone else to take the idea and do it before us.
JL: And it's been a couple of months since I did a finalizing of a chapter in the CUPS book, and I haven't touched THE FARRIS CHANNEL since before that, even.
JL: Bye don
Jean: LESSONS are great things to sell on the Internet.
fishydu: Shame, Shame, JL....
JL: Yes, I know I'm very ashamed I can't get it all done.
Paulab: JL is Magic of the Wands published yet?
Jean: ANY of you who can TEACH something, consider working up a series of e-mails that will teach it.
Jean: Bye Don
JennV: Working on it. :)
fishydu: Well, if you would only work 25 hours a day instead of 23, you'd be ok
JL: And yes, Don just left, but this Karmic Astrology thingie will work up into a section for the School of Rathor site that Don will be working on.
JennV: Anyone want to learn Perl, C and Unix sysadminning.. it's being developed.
JL: Wands is ANOTHER PROJECT I have work to do on -- it's "in production" and I am one of the clogs in the production wheels at the moment.
Jean: YES, Jenn--there must be thousands of people who want to learn programming.
JL: Yeah, we could use a sysadmin assistant.
Zoe: I have to go to work. Darn it.. I'll try to get on there. If i don't have fun everyone and i'll catch you all later.
JL: You could GIVE LESSONS on
Paulab: Bye
JL: OK, seems everyone is leaving. I'll stick around until just before 6 my time.
fishydu: bye, hugs
Jean: Jenn--remind me to send you the URL of the BizWeb Gazette website.
Jean: Bye, Wendy
fishydu: Nope, was saying bye to Zoe
Leigh: I'm still here
cowan: Question: why does S~G have such image problems among the fannish community? What can be done about it, if anything?
KLitman: Good question, wish I knew the answer
Jean: The subconscious sexual component.
Jean: It's all Freud's fault.
Jean: People can't help seeing transfer as sex.
fishydu: That ought to pull them in, rather than putting them off
cowan: What about the political side of it?
Jean: It does pull in Trekfen and lots of other people who are not afraid of sexuality.
cowan: From a lit point of view, transfer *is* a metaphor for sex. To my mind, that adds flavor.
Jean: There are still lots of Puritan about.
Jean: Many don't know they are.
cowan: If they could swallow late RAH, they should be able to swallow S~G. Can't be the whole reason.
fishydu: That's the very reason I can't understand it...puritans are interested in concealed sexuality...maybe it's too subtle for them
Jean: It's too emotional for the hard-science people.
cowan: That should get it ignored, not slandered.
bgray: "BizWeb Gazette"?
Paulab: too much vulnerability
fishydu: Puritans absolutely don't like RAH, they didn't even like the movie.
Jean: Expressed sexuality, as in RAH, allows Puritans to congratulate themselves for their liberalism.
fishydu: which was geared for violence
LadyEliza: catching up...
fishydu: Aaah, because they didn't burn the books? lol
cowan: Good point, Dr. Lorrah.
cowan: Probably did burn them somewhere, or at least it wouldn't surprise me.
Jean: Actually, it's the SENSUAL component of S~G that gives Puritans the willies.
JennV: Dr Lorrah? :)
cowan: I assume there is some kind of personal/political as usual, the personal *is* political) problem as well.
Jean: Ph.D. in Medieval Lit.
Leigh: Jean is a Professor of English Literature at Murray State University in Kentucky
JL: Well, she is Dr. Lorrah, you know.
* JennV I know. I just hadn't actually heard it before. :)
Jean: I'm called that more often than Jean in "real" life.
JL: And if you ever hear her give one of her papers, you'll learn a new level of RESPECT for this woman.
cowan: Ozites don't call anyone by titl except the Pope. :-[)
LadyEliza: Zoe has gone to work she will get on from there
cowan: I should hope so.
* JennV grins at Cowan. "Hey, we call Queen Lizzie by hers."
bgray: Part of it can be attributed to the fact that there are no books on the shelves.
Jean: It's fun to be on the WWW on a first-name basis with everyone.
* cowan leers back "But not for long, not for long".
LadyEliza: you mean Johny?
LadyEliza: lol
LadyEliza: this is true - and this tag on the front of my name is EARNED
cowan: Howzat? I though you "earned" that kinda title by right of brith.
cowan: Er, birth.
cowan: (Bad unintentional English/Hebrew pun there).
fishydu:'re right...
Margaret: I thought the Writing Workshop was on New Business part of Agenda
Leigh: nothing like polyglot puns
Leigh: yes, what is the status of the Writing Workshop
JL: That's why we're putting BOOKS ON THE WEB -- where you can recommend them to your skeptical friends who can try them out for free. The ones who get hooked can then get the books on (or that's the plan -- we have lots of work to do toward that end).
bgray: It also appeals to the -huge- Vampire community.
JL: BTW one of the reasons RBW got that award this year was the work he did toward getting those early books scanned and OCR'd for web-posting. And Karen then cleaned up the residual typos.
fishydu: That's great...I've always been reluctant to loan my Sime~Gen out, for fear I'd never get it back...will buy, in quantity
JL: And Jean and written a vampire novel that's not published -- and I have THOSE OF MY BLOOD and DREAMSPY which were just in hc and never in pb -- and we want to put those up on the web for free reading, too.
bgray: There's a whole sub-genre of Romances about "dark" romance now... :-:
Paulab: I don't either Fishy!
JL: I made a VAMPIRES section for -- and I want to put my two vampire stories in there.
Jean: I'm considering where to web-publish BLOOD WILL TELL.
Paulab: I would like that JL
* JennV ooohs. I have a vampire short to rework and put up...
JL: And we will have a ROMANCE section on - "dark" would be fine by us.
Jean: Too busy recently to do the research.
fishydu: I still have mine...smirks
cowan: Do you consider MZB's _Two to COnquer_ a disjunction story?
JL: Fine Jenn but if it hasn't been Pro pub'd it'll have to be vetted by Jean and me first.
Leigh: that is an interesting question -- similarities between universes
KLitman: intresting thought John.
Leigh: I've often noted the similarities between Risa Tigue and Lessa of Pern
Seanara: You know, John, I never thought of it that way, but you have a good point.
JL: (BTW for those who don't know it -- Jenn can REALLY write - I mean she is super-terrific GOOD.)
JennV: I was never happy enough with it to pro-publish it.
JennV: That's why I want to rework it.
LadyEliza: JL - have you changed the link on the front page back to
LadyEliza: I need to take it off so that I can give leigh that room
* JennV blinks. Blushes. "I *AM*?"
Seanara: And F'lar and Klyd
JL: I worked on TWO TO CONQUER with MZB so I'm much too close to the material -- saw too many failed drafts and rewrites -- to be able to make a judgement.
LadyEliza: is down until someone fixes the routers :(
Leigh: I do think the thematic similarity is there
JL: Oh, yes F'lar and Klyd -- yes indeed!!!
KLitman: I agree with Leigh about the similarity
JL: But Klyd predates F'lar
Leigh: the deep psychological change that Bard undergoes could be seen as a sort of psychological disjunction
cowan: On darkover-lovers it consistently gets the highest levels of (praise+blame); people either love it or hate it. (Me, I hate it.)
JL: Eliza -- yes, the "moved" gif points to /sgfandom now.
Leigh: Both F'lar and Klyd are taking the weight of a whole world on their shoulders
Leigh: I found _Two to Conquer_ very difficult reading
Seanara: Difficult, but Bard deserved what he got.
JL: I loved every second of TWO TO CONQUER (MZB's TTC that is)
cowan: Likewise the last herald-mage (I'm blocking on his name, dammit)
Leigh: And the wonderful thing is that it remakes him into a better person instead of simply destroying him -- the metal is forged anew
Seanara: Vanyel
Margaret: .
bgray: Don't you run into the problem of downloading without desiring to pay?
Jean: That is why we are considering BiblioBytes.
LadyEliza: thank you :)
Jean: You can't download.
Jean: You either read on-line or print out.
cowan: Thanks, Vanyel it is.
cowan: I wanted to love it; the first time through I was excited enough about it to endure it. The second time, I barfed.
fishydu: Download by chapter or something...beginning is free, then pay
JL: Well, on BB you CAN download -- one page at a time, and you get all the stuff that goes around it -- and the paragraphs come out all wrong.
fishydu: Meant print out
cowan: Actually, you can download if you have a suitable piece of software. Maybe I'll write one.
Jean: The download-first-chapter-fre--then-pay model doesn't work.
cowan: (Freeware, of course).
cowan: What one computer can scramble, another can unscramble. You can't download whole books *with a browser*, but that's another story.
fishydu: Darn!
Jean: BB changed from than when they found that neither they nor their authors were making any money.
Leigh: people just read the first chapter and decide not to get the rest
JL: Fishydu -- our research has shown that the download-for-pay model DOES NOT WORK. BB nearly went broke trying it, and changed, which is why we're interested in going with them.
LadyEliza: if you can read on line what's to stop you from select all - copy - paste in word?
Jean: Now they give the whole book away free.
fishydu: Accepted...but too bad
Leigh: it's long and tedious -- most people would rather take it by the page instead of cutting and pasting
JL: It's effort-to-return -- most people would find it much CHEAPER to just go buy the book if they like the story. That has proven to be true.
Jean: You can cut and paste if it's worth it to you.
JennV: And buying the book is cheaper than..
LadyEliza: whats the url again?
JennV: What JL said.
Jean: It's not worth it to most people.
Seanara: My printer rebels at big jobs.
cowan: NOt a thing, except that it's too painful. But the HTTP protocol is not rocket science, and it's easy to write a program to download page after page and then stff the result into a single file. Trust me. P-)
Jean: Easy for YOU, difficult for ME.
JL: Sure, John, but then you end up with a bunch of pages, not a bound book.
JennV: John: if we put stuff on the web, we KNOW we will lose a certain amount to people printing it.
fishydu: Maybe it's not rocket science to you, but
JL: Furthermore, it doesn't come out in standard book-layout.
KLitman: I'll take a bound book any day
JennV: We partially counter that by having advertising on the web pages. And we accept our losses.
cowan: Ah, but once I write it and give it away, you and zillions of
cowan: others can use it for free.
Seanara: Me, too.
JL: Besides, it costs more to MAKE A PRINTOUT than to buy the book.
Jean: .
Margaret: Longyear's Science Fiction Workshop is out of print so I printed it out. Took a week and a ream of paper.
LadyEliza: I prefer a book I can lie in bed and read :)
JL: This is true, John -- and at the current state of the world, there's NOTHING we can do about that problem.
LadyEliza: hard to do that with a desktop monitor
* Seanara agrees with Eliza
LadyEliza: and if you go to sleep and drop it....
Jean: There is now a big fad for lunchtime reading.
Margaret: can't write notes in margins either
fishydu: I had all the fiction I printed off the site bound....not to cheat...because I wanted to be able to re-read without hours of work
JennV: Of course, if you have a solution, cowan....?
* Seanara cringes at the crash of the dropped monitor
JL: And it's hard to read in bed (or bath) with a pile of sheets, or a pile bound into a notebook. MOST people doesn't include John -- and occasionally not me and Margaret either.
Jean: People with WWW access at work read from screen while they eat their sandwiches.
cowan: Yeah, I know about the economics of private printout. It's cheaper than *mass-marketed* books, but *not* necessarily cheapr than small runs
cowan: such as we are talking about.
bgray: It's the old "hook" story again.
Leigh: they're already working on a form of electronic "paper" that will be durable and light, but can change to hold multiple information -- I've seen it on Popular Science
LadyEliza: me too Karen
cowan: Jenn, my role here is that of Village Idiot.
bgray: If you haven't "got" them by the first chapter you never will.
Jean: All John says is true.
Margaret: Have bought several books locally after reading sample chapters online
* JennV ahs. "I dislike dealing with people playing that role. I know it's necessary, but it drives me batty."
Jean: We hope to provide printed copy at reasonable price to those who want to read in bed.
Jean: That is part of what we want to EARN MONEY for.
JL: Yes, and the tech behind delivering fiction will change and change again and again over the next few years. We are gearing up to change with it. What we're really doing is INVENTING A WHOLE NEW FICTION DELIVERY SYSTEM.
Margaret: I like paperbacks, easy to carry, can read in bed, in tub, on bus
Jean: While we HOPE to have a small-press publisher publish the books, we may have to publish them through Sime~Gen Inc.
cowan: I hope so too; 8x11 (A4, more or less) is an awkward format, though not as awkward as reading from the laptop. (I'm amazed that you can do that, Dr. L: my eyesight won't tolerate it for long stretches any more).
JL: Jean's right about that -- if the novels posted on BB bring people to our server to read the REST -- we make money.
cowan: You make money how? Only if they follow your ads. The portal business is pretty crowded these days.
Jean: The advertisers pay us per impression.
JL: John -- if you download and print this thing page by page, it will all count as hits and we get paid. True, you can print up copies for your friends, but if you go into business distributing those copies for money, you break the copyright and stand to get sued.
Jean: An impression happens when someone visits a page on
JL: No, Joh, that's the beauty of it -- you don't have to click the ads and we still get paid.
Jean: If reading a novel free on BB causes someone to want to look at fan info,
LadyEliza: John - I thought that I was the Village Idiot? We might have to do a duo hey?
LadyEliza: Can you juggle?
JL: But this company will do business with us ONLY IF we build to a certain threshold hitrate.
Jean: or read background
cowan: Oh sure. I wasn't worried about prviate unauthorized printing, but about private unauthorized electronic distributing.
Jean: or game
Jean: or whatever, it will bring us money.
* JennV ahs. Private unauthorised electronic distribution we don't have a way of handling.
cowan: The minute you get into putting your material out in electronic form, I or someone more unscrupulous than I can reduce it to plain text or plain HTML and post it wherever. Very bad for your image.
cowan: P**** off your advertisers too if your material is being blatantly ripped off, why not theirs too (on your website)
JennV: Short of finding out about it and challenging them for copyright breach.
fishydu: I can't figure out how THEY (the 'company') make money, but I don't care as long as they pay you
JL: We also have a plan to provide authorized electronic distributing -- so unauthorized won't be as convenient as ours. We can do cd-roms or whatever medium eventually takes off.
LadyEliza: doh
LadyEliza: :)
bgray: If you "believe" Trek, "books" as we know them will eventually vanish except as collectors items.
Jean: Well, we just HOPE that we do not attract someone ambitious enough to cut and paste every page of every novel from BB and create an electronic book that s/he distributes widely enough to cut into our rightful payment.
JL: Our UNDERLYING POINT is that on-paper publishing is no longer a way for a writer to make a living. At this point in time, there IS NO WAY for a writer to make a living from writing stories -- so we are going to invent a new one.
cowan: I can't agree with you, JL. Very little is more convenient than getting a book in email or Usenet or a pirate web page.
Jean: We HOPE we don't get someone with those skills AND that much time AND the obsession with doing that.
cowan: Jean, that hope is futile, as I'm trying to illustrate. That cut'n'paste process is dead easy to automate.
Margaret: when copiers first came out there was a lot of screaming about piracy, some happened but...
Leigh: And to distribute it widely enough to cause trouble, one would call attention to the activity, so that person can be shut down as a pirate
* JennV apologises, but is going to have to leave for a while.
LadyEliza: Zoe should be back on shortly :)
Jean: Okay, John. As soon as the papers come back, I will file the disbanding of Sime~Gen Inc.
JL: fishydu - go read the website at and then follow the link to the purveyor of their ad banners and read that website and tell us what you think (another DAY not today - I'm burned out here now).
LadyEliza: I know one person who is making money on the net teaching Jazz
Jean: We will quit at once without even trying,
cowan: Not if it's done by lots of people just passing on to friends, Leigh. That's the moral of the software piracy business: most pirates aren't pros.
LadyEliza: he is in Australia (Nambour, small town) and has students world wide
Jean: Why waste all this time and energy?
LadyEliza: he has a map of the world on the wall with coloured pins in it for each student
Jean: You've told us it is hopeless.
Jean: Why should we even try?
* KLitman hopes Jean is joking.......
Leigh: ah, the death of a thousand cuts, then -- lots of people making one or two pirate copies, rather than one or two people making a lot of them
LadyEliza: discussion about electronic publishing
cowan: Like I said, I'm the Village Idiot. I want to make sure you've *really* thought through the implications of posting the crown jewels for all the world to see, and are not making decisions that are technically uninformed.
bgray: And getting more so all the time.
cowan: If I sound hostile, I apologize. I want this to work as much as anyone, but I know as well as anyone the consequences of wishful thinking.
KLitman: Personally, I think it should be given a try, and see if it works.
Jean: We have to assume that the theft will be no larger a percentage than shoplifting causes a physical store.
JennV: John, a short word. JL and Jean are making no money at all from Sime~Gen. If there's a little hope, it's better than none whatsoever.
JL: Jean is not joking. John isn't really THINKING about what we're saying here.
fishydu: Will do JL
* Netdancer is going to scoot too: I am connected, and can be pinged by e-mail.
LadyEliza: goodbye Jenn - see you later :)
* KLitman still thinks we should see if as you plan it will work in spite of the gloom and doom predicted by John
cowan: Electronic shoplifting/piracy is a lot easier.
LadyEliza: bye NetDancer
Jean: If we can get enough hits on to get advertising, the SITE will pay.
* JennV sighs. Yes, you sound hostile. Sufficiently hostile that I'm unwilling to continue attempting to deal with this conversation at the moment.
cowan: It's the Bibliobytes that bothers me. is perfectly fine as a portal.
Netdancer: Take care, all.
bgray: If you can get on the "biggies" like AOL/Netscape, Microsoft, or others, you potentially have even more customers.
JL: It isn't a question of HOPE at all, nor assumptions -- and it isn't JUST SIME~GEN -- our entire category of fiction is DEAD DEAD DEAD -- (it's called "mid-list") and the web is the ONLY POSSIBLE DIRECTION for us to go in. We have to FIND A WAY. And we have to work with what's now available.
* JennV waves. I'll be back later. Perhaps.
Seanara: JL and Jean, this might sound dumb...but have you thought of self-publishing in PRINT and selling the books on the Web?
Jean: If we put the books on, we will be subject to EXACTLY the same piracy as BiblioBytes.
JL: Ah, I've come to the end of my time for today, and I really have to go now. Bye Jenn --
ECJB: Bye bye, JL!
fishydu: Bye JL
Margaret: bye JL
KLitman: night Jenn, Jacqueline
Jean: We will simply have lost the opportunity to have an established site directing traffic to us.
fishydu: To Cowan...really not everyone is as technically astute as you...
fishydu: Bye Jean
LadyEliza: People - when someone plays Devils Advicate please don't get upset with them - you don't want a lot of "yes" men do you?
JennV: Seanara, yes. Not yet commercially feasible - printing costs for short runs too high, storage costs for larger runs too high.
LadyEliza: if you do let us know and we will smile and nod
cowan: Oh yes, probably worse. As you say, you are making no money off them now. I don't see how you benefit by setting up barrier to access that are made of tissue paper.
LadyEliza: until then we will have and state opinions
cowan: If you want to use the books as loss leaders, give them a away and sell something else.
Margaret: I will buy and so will many others
LadyEliza: bye JL
cowan: (Or find a patron, I suppose. _)
fishydu: Not upset...reality...not everybody would think it easy to 'steal' the fiction cause they don't know how
Jean: The advertisers are the patrons.
bgray: I've heard that this is one of the main problems with gaming companies.
fishydu: It's much easier to put up your money and enjoy than to work twice as hard to be able to read
Jean: Yet gaming companies are making money.
cowan: once stolen by a prgorammer plus a (non-programing) priate, that's it. They're loose.
cowan: Fishy, no work required.
JL: Bye folks -- thanks for coming, thanks for voting -- thanks for ALL THE WORK -- and here comes an even more work-filled year. John, don't complain -- find us a SOLUTION. Take this as an opportunity to exercise your creativity and make something nobody else has ever thought to make in a way nobody but you could ever think of. THAT is what Sime~Gen is for.
cowan: Anyway, I gotta scram. Nice talking to you all, and good luck.
cowan: If I could, JL, I would, but that's like straining a bottle of water out of the ocean.
Paulab: bye JL
Jean: Right, John. Be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. I have to go, too.
Paulab: I'm outta here. Everyone take it easy...
Seanara: Bye, JL. Go eat dinner and relax. :-)
Jean: Bye, everyone!
Margaret: bye Jean
ECJB: Bye! Nice meeting you....
LadyEliza: Piracy was a problem before the web - now it's a bigger problem. Softward companies still manage to make money though
fishydu: bye Jean
Seanara: Bye, Jean.
KLitman: I gess we have to work through each problem as it appears.
LadyEliza: bye John
bgray: Are you taking about the "death" of SF (as opposed to fantasy which -sells- right now)
LadyEliza: bye Jean
fishydu: It was only in its infancy that software pirating was a big it's a cost of doing business and they make LOTS of money
Leigh: it's the midlist problem -- either you're a bestseller or you're unmarketable
bgray: I agree with Jean on Piracy and Bibliobytes.
bgray: It was fun, JL...
KLitman: yeah.... midlist hasn't sold much in years, which is their problem.
Leigh: My friend Sherwood Smith is running into that -- her YA novels get all kinds of prestigious awards, but not the sales figures the beancounters want
ECJB: [Shaking head KLitman: exactly Leigh
Leigh: She says her agent can't even get publishers to look at her stuff, and her agent is starting to not want to talk to her
ECJB: I wish I had an idea of what could be done about it...
kbaichtal: [hug] fishydu: She needs a new agent!
Leigh: I'm to the point I'm almost scared to have one of my novels sell, for fear that I'll be in the same seat
LadyEliza: anyone want to talk to me about their webpages and the virtual tecton while we are here?
KLitman: Nothing can be done it seems, except for this new form of publishing S~G is hoping to become.
Margaret: publishers don't push anything that they don't think will bring big profits and then it self fulfils
fishydu: Lady E, gotta run...catch you web page anyhow
fishydu: Bye everybody, have a great year!
ECJB: Good night, everyone...
Margaret: nite
bgray: Oh well - here's to a -prosperous- New Year for all of us!
KLitman: yes, thank you Bruce.
Margaret: ditto
KLitman: Guess we should call it a night.......
bgray: As Tigger likes to say "Taa Taa For Now".
KLitman: See you soon Bruce.
Session Close: Sun Jan 03 18:11:55 1999
Logs edited by Karen MacLeod

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