JL` is Jacqueline Lichtenberg

Jean is Jean Lorrah

Ann is Ann Marie Olson - enrolled student

Margaret is Margaret Carr - enrolled student

Valorie is Valorie Lennox - enrolled student arriving last

Marge is Marge Robbins - Sime~Gen domain webmaster and moderator of this session

#classroom is the main channel for discussion --

#sgchat is used for side-commentary and chitchat but occasionally a comment of substance appears there and may have been copied into #classroom

<JL`> Ann -- your problem with being unable to figure out the direction of the Assignments is one  I'd like to address.  You see, I didn't WANT YOU TO figure out the direction of the Assignments.
<Jean> I did.
<Ann> I had a hard time even getting that until near the end ... would have been ok that way

<JL`> That's why Jean and I team so well -- we have different
objectives.
<Margaret-> as Jean keeps pointing out this is Post-doc level not
undergrad
<Jean> The direction was supposed to be to learn STRUCTURE.
<Ann> with a -lot- of lower division students
<Jean> To recognize it and then create it.
<JL`> I wanted you to create from the template that I laid down --
create freehand -- to teach  yourself in your own specific way.
<Jean> I was trying to teach a very basic freshman-level course.
<Marge> Hi Jean
<Ann> Once I got to that point, I at least knew where I was supposed to
go
<Jean> Hi, Marge.
<JL`> And I was trying to teach a grad seminar.
<Ann> Noon + :30
<JL`> Ann -- there's no "supposed to" involved and that's the whole point.   We're in a creative  artform here, not an engineering course.
<Jean> If I can get through to freshmen to have a thesis for every
paper, I have given them  something they can use for life.
<Margaret-> oops.
<JL`> Yes, Jean -- THESIS -- did anyone here yet read Jean's bit on that?
<Ann> LOL! Jean, I -am- an engineer ... no matter how hard I try
otherwise
<Jean> If I can get through to creative writing students that every
story must have a conflict,  they will have something to use for life.
<Margaret-> the two interviewees? yes
<JL`> I said that, Ann.
<Ann> Yes! and I thought it was wonderful
<JL`> Ann
<Margaret-> very helpful
<Jean> It's the same thing, just non-fiction vs. fiction.
<Jean> Underlying STRUCTURE.
<JL`> But actually there's no difference between fiction and nonfiction -- nonfiction is a  sub-genre of fiction.
<Jean> No skeleton, no successful work, no matter how great the blood
and muscles are.
<Ann> However ... there are some authors, very successful ones who =
-don't- have the structure  behind their work
<Jean> Yes, they DO!
<JL`> Ah, Ann THEY DOOOO
<Ann> Tom Robbins?
<JL`> It's just harder to FIND IT.
<JL`> Chaim Potok for one.
<Ann> W.S. Burroughs?
<Jean> That guy you sent us to--every one of his novels has a conflict.
<JL`> And a very clear STRUCTURE.
<Jean> James Joyce, too.
<JL`> Yes on Joyce!!!
<Jean> Some hide it, but it's there.
<Margaret-> ugh. I'll pass on Joyce!
<JL`> I detest Joyce, but one thing that's always there is a very hard
skeleton of structure.
<JL`> That's why we've been harping on PATTERN RECOGNITION.
<Jean> This Robbins character merely keeps his structure in his subconscious.
<JL`> The patterns are different -- but the techniques of  FINDING THEM are unvarying.
<Jean> Did you read the AUTHOR of the Robbins essay's last paragraph?
<Jean> He says DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.
<Ann> Exactly so ... I don't plan on it ... but I thought it was
wonderful fun
<Jean> He says Robbins' technique is not reproduceable.
<JL`> And what we're training you to do is to train your subconscious to PATTERN your work before  letting you know you've got an idea.
* Ann bummed
<JL`> It is REPRODUCABLE -- but you have to go through this course toget there.
<Ann> My problem is that I pattern it ... and then can't display the blessed thing!
<JL`> It's all a matter of TRAINING the subconscious.
<Jean> No, this course will not take you to Zen methods.
<Margaret-> Ann, I don't see why you have to limit yourself to the Beginner requirements for 7
<JL`> Some people may have done that in a prior lifetime and/or been born with the Gift.  The rest  of us had to learn.  Those who have learned, can teach.

<Jean> For that, read _Zen and the Art of Archery_ or _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_.
<Ann> Margaret ... The Hunt was the -first- piece of fiction I have ever release to a general  audience
<Jean> We are training the conscious, not the subconscious.
<Ann> Actually Writing Down the Bones was excellent
<JL`> But you can't learn writing with the part of your mind that can be taught.   Writing craft  has to be trained in -- the art is innate, but also can be learned by yet another part of the  consciousness.
<Jean> We are not trying to teach art.
<Jean> We are trying to teach craft.
<Ann> I know that now ... was not clear on that at the beginning
<Jean> Craft is learned by the conscious mind.
<Ann> But then I have a hard time even expressing the conflict I see in written work in anything  other than the 500 word essay
<Jean> After a while the subconscious starts doing it automatically.
<JL`> Jean - we are training the conscious mind in how to train the subconscious.   You have to  start with the top of the conscious mind, and then do repetitive DRILLS -- and eventually, by  rewarding the subconscious for producing NEW WORK that's got conflict
integrated into it,  eventually it will always do that for you.
<Margaret-> repetition
<Ann> Oh it is directly trained ... I do have a background in Tao and Zen
<Jean> Just the way driving a car moves to the autonomic nervous system before you can have a  license.
<Ann> That is one way to do it JL
<Ann> Direct programming methods are also available ... just more time intensive to learn how to  use
<JL`> Ann - it's the way that works best for the engineering mind.
<Margaret-> scales day after day for practice then forget the fingers when performing
<JL`> But yes, I have a background in Zen too.
<Jean> My father learned to drive by Zen technique.
<JL`> My magickal training is broad based and extensive.
<Ann> Gee I hadn't guessed.  <j/k>
<Jean> He promised to drive a lady to another town in order to get his hands on a car.
<JL`> And I use it in all my writing CRAFT techniques.
<Jean> He just did it.
<Jean> As a consequence, he could not teach me to drive.
<JL`> "Do not try; do!"
<JL`> Love Yoda.
<Jean> I had to take driver's ed.
<Ann> Exactly so
<Jean> Daddy drove me...crazy.
<Ann> That is why I have just gone back to hitting the keyboard and cranking out the words
<JL`> There is the SKILL of driving -- and there are the innate REFLEXES that make it possible to  survive driving.
<JL`> We are teaching the SKILLs of writing.
<JL`> The reflexes you will have to train yourself by your own best techniques because they aren't  the same for any two people.
<Jean> I learned from a trained teacher, got my license, and then Daddy honed my skills.
<JL`> My Dad taught me to drive.
<Jean> But what we are teaching are not the reflexes.
<JL`> But I don't drive the way he did.
<Ann> My father taught my by sticking me on a motorcycle
<Jean> Bet your Dad didn't learn by doing, Jacqueline!
<JL`> FEAR is a good teacher.
<Jean> Or he couldn't teach.
<JL`> Yes, my Dad learned by driving a tractor when he was about 9 years old.
<JL`> That was BEFORE CARS.
<Ann> Yup! I was taught ... sorta, to ride though ... at least the basics
<JL`> Before roads too.
<Jean> His Dad taught him.
<JL`> No, his Dad didn't teach him.
<Ann> Most of my advanced horse skills I picked up on my own by feel
<Jean> Anyway, it is very, very hard to teach what you learned by doing.
<Ann> The problem with the 'by feel' method for things like writing is that the final product  often doesn't follow the 'rules'
<Jean> I floundered for years trying to learn writing by doing.
<JL`> So you see, Ann -- we are exposing you to a skill set and expecting you to CREATE YOUR OWN  COURSE not to understand what we want -- because you are an adult whohas aleady mastered a  whole slew of skills and you know best how to inculcate skills into yourself.
<Jean> Then I began analyzing and began selling.
<Ann> I am still trying to figure out how to integrate all the rules for releasable stuff
<Jean> You don't need ALL the rules.
<Jean> We have been trying to teach just ONE:  conflict.
<Jean> Conflict is the basis of all fiction.
<JL`> Actually, just one.  Plot=3DBecause.
<Jean> That's conflict.
<JL`> And conflict is the basis of plot.
<Ann> But if it doesn't have the protag at the beginning, protag-antag on the first page ... etc
<Jean> The because-line.
<JL`> so it's Conflict=3DPlot=3DBecause
<Jean> Then you don't have a conflict.
<Jean> No protag, no conflict.
<Jean> There doesn't have to be an antag, but there must be a protag.
<Ann> I meant protage on the first page, first action being conflict
<JL`> Ann -- you don't HAVE TO HAVE protag and antag on the first page. Many great novels don't.   But in order to get to where you can analyze and understand what those great novels do INSTEAD  you MUST LEARN PROTAG & ANTAG on the first page.   Then move on from there.
<Jean> Well, that's a modern rule.
<JL`> If you can't do protag vs. antag on the first page, you CAN'T do anything harder than that.
<Jean> It used to be possible to entertain the reader for fifty pages before getting down to  conflict.
<Ann> I can do it, I just don't like it
<Ann> I am good for about 1/3 of the work ... up to about 150
<JL`> You don't have to like it -- just do it once for us and we'll bump you up to the NEXT LEVEL.
<Ann> If the style is good ... I stick around indefinately
<Jean> YOU are not a typical reader.
<Ann> I never said I wouldn't do it, now did I? <grin>
<Jean> Also, even YOU demand a payoff.
<Ann> Nope ... and I started writing because I couldn't find stuff I wanted to read
<JL`> That's exactly why I started writing!!!!
<JL`> Imagine that.
<Jean> "stuff you want to read" =3D payoff
<JL`> Margaret are you with us?
<Margaret-> yes, fascinated
<JL`> Apparently nobody else is coming, so we should get to Margaret's Assign 7 questions.
<Ann> Sure thing
<JL`> ah, good.
<Ann> Yeah! That makes my 7 easier
* Ann -really- shouldn't have used so many dark/twisted pieces
<Ann> I tend to throw stupid protag books across the room
<Ann> I -adore- Ellison
<Ann> Yup! Great work
<Ann> The problem is that Ellison can't write a novel to save his -life-

<Ann> YES!!!
<JL`> I'm watching your comments too -- but Jean reads only one windowat a time.
<Ann> <--- can't keep mouth shut so is practicing being peanut gallery
<Ann> Where I would like to end up is a cross between Varley and Ellison
<Ann> Actually that conflic centered-ness may be why he can't do longer than a novella
<JL`> No, it isn't.  He's a short story writer by nature.  You're a novelist by nature.
<JL`> His raw IDEAS are poetry-small.  Yours are VAST CANVAS big.
<Margaret-> and this all has showed me that my stories have failed because of lack of connective  skeleton
<Ann> Interesting idea to chat about sometime ... poertry =3D small
<Ann> Good
<Ann> Otherwise I couldn't end off my 7
<Ann> 3x5 cards or post-it notes can help with involved plots
<Ann> Not true in CA Jean
<JL`> Ann -- I want to give you a turn in the Classroom in a few minutes.
<Ann> OK
<Ann> LOL ... you just heard about that?
<JL`> Yes, Jean lives in Kentucky and has her OWN horror stories.  But she's not reading this  screen.
<Ann> I know that ... just couldn't keep my fat fingers from pounding on the keyboard anyways.
<JL`> Being a teacher, Jean really gets into this stuff.
<JL`> She may read this later.
<JL`> good  -- they're still at it.  You have time?
<Ann> Sure'
<JL`> This is fun -- Margaret is a GREAT writer.
<Ann> That she is
<Ann> I have really enjoyed her stuff
<JL`> Imagine what she'll do when she's got this structural thing down pat.
<JL`> And she's a gnat's whisker from internalizing it.
* Ann shaking head, yes
<Ann> <--- like me getting upset about Hamilton missing the fact that Voudoun is illegal in New  Orleans and sliding over it
<JL`> Yes.
<Ann> <--- listening to Atomic Fireballs ... they are -great-!
<JL`> Watch how we brainstorm hunting for the character traits.  You don't make them up first --  you invent them as you go.
<JL`> They are going and going and going -- teacher-talk.
<Ann> Yup ... <grin>
<JL`> Two writers who are teachers!  Oy.  Talk about shop talk.
<Ann> I come from a sociology background ... my characters tend to arrive fully formed depending  on their history
<Ann> When I have a solid conflict set they fall into place ... if theconflict set is incomplete or  flawed the characters fail
<JL`> Margaret is thinking creatively here, not trying to PLEASE anyone-- only trying to find the  SHAPE that best suits the THEME she has in mind.
<JL`> It's the part of your mind that's forming the characters that has to be retrained, because  they aren't properly formed yet.
<JL`> Not for DRAMA -- they may be realistic -- but realistic seems contrived in fiction.
<JL`> In fiction you must have a SELECTIVE RECREATION OF REALITY -- not the reality itself.
<Ann> Like Andrej in Matthews' books? He is purely a
sociological/psychological character
<JL`> Oh, but Andrej is NOT purely sociological/psychological character!!!   He's a typical  action/adventure HERO.  Those books are VERY COMPLEX.   One day you'll have the skills to analyze  that skeleton out.
<Ann> He is also Archetypical Russian nobility ... empaths are almost always sadists ...  straightforward from that pov
<JL`> Oh, yes, the nobility angle is well depicted.  That's got to
figure in the final book in  this story.
<Ann> That and the instability that is so very typically Russian
<Ann> Dio insists that Russians are crazy ... she is probably right
<JL`> No, Ann -- that's a racist remark.  Russians aren't unstable.  They are consistent with  their WORLD VIEW, their culture.  If you were raised there, you'd look at things the same way.   It isn't unstable.  It's Russian, and valid within that world view.
<Ann> Where do you think I get my information on Russian culture and attitudes? ... It is from  talking with people who are that way
<JL`> Yeah, and that's why it's not true. Trust me on that -- 10 years from now you'll understand  that remark, but not now.
<JL`> I'm still concentrating on Margaret's story-development.
<JL`> BTW: my ancestry is Russian.
<JL`> Part of it anyway.
<Ann> Not surprised ... Dio's is Georgian in part, Jewish at that

<Ann> Yes?
<Marge> want Ann opped now?
<JL`> Marge -- replace Margaret with Ann and let's do a job on Ann's head.
<Ann> Either way
<Ann> Yike!
<JL`> Yeah, your turn.
<Margaret-> hang in there Ann!
<Jean> OK--what's your question?
<Margaret-> oops
<JL`> Ann - now you can post to Classroom.
<Margaret-> huh? Just told me own
<Margaret-> Yes! Beast Master IS perfect!
<Margaret-> really masochist if empath
<Margaret-> there was a story about society in which punishment for hurting others was induced  empathy
<JL`> That's an MZB called "Three to Conquer"
<Margaret-> failed when masochist was induced, he took pleasure in feeling other's pain?
<JL`> No, that didn't happen in 3 to Conquer -- it wasn't just PAIN, it was BEING the person who was  violated (raped).
<Margaret-> another story then.
<Ann> SICK story
<JL`> The point in 3 To Conquer was that the perp has his DEFENSES stripped away -- the sadist who  enjoys another's pain is blocked against his own pain and can feel only the "other's" -- when  the inner defense is destroyed, the sadist does NOT enjoy the other's pain.
<Margaret-> but masochist would
<JL`> Not if his DEFENSES were stripped away.  To see yourself as others see you.  It's a  spiritual awakening, not a punishment.
<Margaret-> in story it was just to prevent violent crime. But masochist could be violent because  he enjoyed the pain
<JL`> That's true -- and only cure is to fix it so he doesn't enjoy the pain.   Modern 20th century  doesn't have that fix yet.
<Margaret-> it was gimmick story. probably why I don't remember author or title
<JL`> True, few gimmick stories get remembered by author/title -- the gimmick sticks in the head  though.  Odd isn't it?
<Margaret-> When characters seem real people is when I remember
<Margaret-> self-image frequently more important than life
<Margaret-> addiction often is a defense against pain of self-knowledge
<Margaret-> thanks
<Margaret-> why IS he a sadist?
<JL`> Because she likes a book about a sadist.
<Margaret-> her reading indicates that
<JL`> And it's sort of out of our area.
<Ann> Assignment 7
<Margaret-> At least Jean reads SOME genre!
<JL`> true -- she reads a lot normally - last year or so our reading time has gone down tubes.
<Margaret-> life does get in the way sometimes
<Margaret-> better raiders capture genfarm and he is dominant raider
<JL`> Yeah, that would work.
<Margaret-> decides to take it over
<Margaret-> war between wanting to keep it going and wanting to torture
<JL`> because of the economics -- tortured Gens can't even raise their own food.
<JL`> And they don't FREAK out well enough for a Kill
<Margaret-> could end with restraining/rationing tortures
<JL`> Yeah, but if this is an addict/TEMPTATION story that won't happen, you see.   Only the sane  and rational can ration.
<JL`> Look at them GO in the Classroom!
<Margaret-> and she likes the other and it is her story
<Margaret-> yes, this is fantastic
<Margaret-> I never thought that
<Margaret-> a failure story
<Margaret-> I interpret 7 as leading to success after hitting bottom
<JL`> That was my idea -- because success-endings SELL -- but Ann has no ambition to sell.  She's  in this for the fan-writing, so she can do anything she wants as long as it works.
<JL`> She'll learn that the most popular fan stories are the ones that end in success.
<JL`> But who says popular is best?  Unique has value.
<Margaret-> or gallant failure
<Margaret-> and many people love dark and gruesome
<Margaret-> but not me!
<JL`> True -- I don't get much out of dark and gruesome.

EXCERPT from #sgchat

<Margaret-> sounds like a challenge!
<JL`> I was never so bored in all my life as when writing the Kerns novels.  I kept falling asleep  at the computer.
<JL`> I HATE ACTION.
<Ann> was having fun!
<Margaret-> hmm. and yet you like Norton
<Ann> Stupid to do Lear
<JL`> Right -- and growing up I saw two things about Norton I didn't like.   Action and the theme  that "slime=Devil"  -- being an ecology sort of person, I see slime mold as GOOD.  And I don't  equate ugly with evil and never have.
<JL`> No, Lear was a good choice.
<Margaret-> I still think you could twist the Lear pattern nicely
<Margaret-> Lear thinks he wants to protect his kingdom. He wants to be taken care of.  Conflict
<JL`> That's a good twist
<Margaret-> but she didn't like it, sigh.
<JL`> Now Jean's on a roll!
<Margaret-> ah, that may help her!
<JL`> Jean's in her element here!
<JL`> Oh, betcha Ann's too young.
<Margaret-> She is having fun today!
<JL`> Yeah, small class gives more depth to one person
<Margaret-> too young!
<Margaret-> poor Willie
<Margaret-> yes!!!
<JL`> Isn't she great.
<Margaret-> Yes
<Margaret-> Seeing a different side of her today
<JL`> This Ann is a very refreshing Ann to have around here.
<JL`> Jean's got many more sides.  Keep exploring.
<Margaret-> oh yes. Great on list too
<Margaret-> beautiful!
<Margaret-> good!
<Margaret-> Got to figure out which box Ambrov Keon is in!
<JL`> The one that Jean wrote alone.
<JL`> With the guys in red cloaks on the cover.
<Margaret-> I know. in one of the boxes in my garage. live in studio,
can't keep all books inside
<Margaret-> rotate. but careless about labeling boxes
<JL`> Starts in a hurricane where Risa and her father are in a boat on
the river -- and the boat  overturns and her father dies, and she washes up on the shore and meets Sergi and she's in  ferocious Need and he's just lost his channel and gives her transfer as if she's a channel ---
  because she is.
<Margaret-> remember general plot but haven't read for a couple of
years. Almost as good as  finding a new one!
<Margaret-> Hi Valorie
<JL`> Welcome Valorie!
<Valorie> Hi!
<JL`> We're taking turns with the students in #classroom -- just did a
job on Margaret, now we're  working on poor Ann.  If you want a turn it's VERY LATE, but we can give you a quick Q&A.
<JL`> Marge -- could you switch Ann for Valorie and give Valorie a
chance in Classroom please?
<Marge> Hi Valorie
<Valorie> Okay. I just dropped by in case this was still continuing. I
was dealing with work  issues this morning.
<Marge> She's not in the classroom
<Valorie> Hi Marge!
<JL`> Valorie - sign into #classroom and Marge will fix it so you can
post there.
<Marge> Ann you ready to be deopped?
<Ann> Yup
<Marge> ok
<Ann> Reading what was going on up here while I was being roasted.
<Ann> That was some interesting commentary ... thanks all
<Margaret-> it was a good session, learned a lot!
<Ann> As did I ... now I think I know what they want
<Margaret-> yes, they are much more flexible than we have been giving them credit for
<Ann> I think some of that is the lack of feedback ... we get the commentary and to me at least, it tends to  feel like it was writ in stone
<Margaret-> but it isn't. Allow for differences. The way Jean read small
shop and went off into Industrial  Trainer brought that home to me
<Margaret-> I think that was A 3
<Ann> Mrph ... thought of another question ... foo
<Margaret-> what is it?
<Ann> How in the world does one get an arranged marriage to not start
with a 'hung hero'?
<Margaret-> umm. story starts when hero takes first action to get unhung?
<JL`> Yes, UNHUNG-ING the Protag is a good way to start a story.
<Ann> Oh! Ok ... thats a way to do it ... and one of my usuals
<Margaret-> making a decision can be an action
<Ann> I have too much of a tendency to be passive to want to risk using a decision rather than an action
<JL`> A decision is an action.  Like prayer.  It causes everything that
happens afterwards.
<Margaret-> Matchmaker, Matchmaker, Make Me a Match
<Margaret-> or NO! I won't!
<Ann> Thank you, Margaret!
<JL`> Announcing a decision out loud in public is the ACTION that goes with it.   POINT OF NO RETURN -- now  everyone EXPECTS OF ME.  That's an "own worst enemy" type of opening. 
Now you're stuck and you did it to  yourself.
<Ann> There we go ... now I could only -delete- the passive voice from
my vocabulary I would be much happier
<JL`> BTW I missed Ann's THEME in the pieces we were brainstorming. What's the sadist-story's THEME?
<Ann> The price of compassion
<Ann> (only I would come up with something that twisted)
<Margaret-> but, that would imply compassion as what the hero wants
<Ann> It would take the entire work to show it (as it can't be really =
told ... not as I see it)
<JL`> No, that's the S~G theme in a nutshell and I came up with that in
the mid1950's.
<JL`> It takes a series of long novels.
<Margaret-> going from me centered to others being important
<Ann> Actually I had a single facet of it, but it is only one I can
verbalize in about 30-40K words or a poem
<Ann> Visually ... poetically ... it is the blood on the scalpel
<Margaret-> poem as opening, could work
<JL`> Poems make great SYMBOLS -- for things like justice and other
abstracts.
<Ann> Many of my themes are not 100% articulatable in standard english... because I don't think to myself,  often in standard english
<JL`> Ann - your themes are 100% articulatable in English.  I promise
you that on my honor as a writer.
<JL`> I've been where you are now -- exactly where you are.  I see
myself in you so very much.
<Ann> Ok ... or perhaps I should say in short sentence
<JL`> You will learn how to tease apart the tangle and articulate those
themes.
<JL`> In one short sentence -- yes.
<Ann> I believe you ... but I think it is going to take a lot of words
to get to that point
<Ann> Good ... I want a lot of the stuff on the dark story so I can
reference it
<JL`> Fewer if you concentrate on learning the stuff in this course.
<Ann> Really, I have been ... other than a small block to be able to
<Margaret-> 3 hrs 15 min
keep going at all as a writer
<Ann> Thank you both very much ... for your time and energy
<JL`> I hadn't intended this to go so long.
<Margaret-> for them!
<Margaret-> think I heard that last time
<Ann> I think this happens everytime.
<JL`> Yeah, it does sound familiar now that you point it out.
<Margaret-> obviously you two are not clock slaves
<Margaret-> This has been a great help! Thank you all.
<Ann> That's a good way to do it
<JL`> Yeah, actually I am.  My husband will walk in any minute and
there's STUFF undone in the kitchen.,
<Ann> <hiding under desk>
<Marge> I just finished MY dishes.
<Margaret-> uhoh!
<Marge> ~smug~
* JL` insufferable Marges around here.
<Ann> Really!
<Marge> it's called multitasking
<Ann> Poetry is -quite- complex
<Margaret-> The art of poetry is finding the simplicity
<Marge> This time I didn't have to actively particpate makes a big
difference
<Ann> I think we like different poetry Margaret
<Margaret-> could be
<Ann> Very true, JL ... if you haven't noticed
<Margaret-> but simple can be very Complex
<Ann> Please don't say that Jacqueline
<Ann> <--- trying to do both
<Ann> Thank you very much for your time
<Ann> I really, really appreciate all you have done
<Margaret-> VERY HELPFUL
<JL`> Thank you Ann -- I really appreciate all you've added to this =
course.
<Margaret-> just don't want to leave do we?
<JL`> Margaret -- I'm glad you're getting something out of hanging out
with the beginners.  This is a tricky  course to run with such a diversity of LEVELS of accomplishment.
<Ann> You are quite welcome. I look forward to meeting the two of you at NASFic this year as well
<JL`> Oh, good you'll be at NasFic.  Email me about that.
<Margaret-> I am a beginner
<Ann> Will do
<JL`> Depends what you're beginning at!!!
<Ann> Bye Jean
<Margaret-> remember my middle initial is I not A
<Margaret-> until next time then
<JL`> Yeh, I know which one you are.
<Ann> Yes, until next time ...
<Margaret-> unpublished!
<Ann> Might be fun to just have occasional chats as well
<Ann> bye JL
<Margaret-> this is a good time for me Ann
<Valorie> Bye. Thanks again.
<Ann> It is ok for me, but evening PST are a bit better or in the
morning, again PST
<JL`> Carter will rue the day some of her first items were published --
she's GOING to be great, but still has  structural problems.
<JL`> Yeah, but what of our Aussies?
<Ann> Bye Marge
<Marge> bye
<JL`> And we now have someone in Holland.
<JL`> bye folks
<Marge> bye
<Margaret-> bye
<Ann> With round the world there really isn't any good time,
unfortuately ... should talk about this on the  list
<JL`> bye Jean