E-Selyn

Words from the Web

First Channel - List Thread

October 2004 – Part Two

Compiled by: Kaíres Tévesu

(Missing files contributed by Kate Kirk)

Link to Part One

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From: "Jean Lorrah"

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:41:23 GMT

And a book in which every single character who is not a villain is perfect or at least likeable would not read as realistic.

I agree with that and those kinds of stories get tiresome.

You know, I was thinking more about this last night, finishing up Channel's Destiny (and -surprise! - I don't dislike Jord in CD) and it struck me that it's quite a feat for an author to write a character that's not likeable yet write a book that's so compelling.

I mean that if I'm reading a book and it has characters that I just find unlikeable, I may finish the book but it's not going to be one I'll keep coming back to and rereading. The S~G novels are different. I think there are characters in every single novel that I

find unlikeable at one time or another (my reactions change over the years, sometimes surprising me) - yet I'm still compelled to reread these books. That's an art.

You've put your finger on it: we easily feel sympathy for pathetic children, but we are turned off by pathetic adults.

Which is why so many scammers haul kids around with them when they're panhandling. (Las Vegas is full of panhandlers. Oddly, I've never seen someone that is clearly homeless - pushing his or her wordly possessions around in a shopping cart - begging for anything. I have seen people in brand-new Nikes hang around the bus stops with a

handful of kids asking for money.)

But did he really want Kadi, or did he just want what Rimon had? We don't have Yahn's point of view, but I assumed as I wrote him that inside he was gloating that at last Rimon the golden-boy-Sime-killer had lost something important to him--and Yahn could rub it in by taking Kadi away from him. Never underestimate the power of envy.

Hmm, I think I like Winged Wolf's take on Yahn better! g I can see the validity of yours, too. Does that mean that Yahn was never a true friend to Rimon and Kadi, or that his mind and heart got twisted when he turned Gen? And wouldn't that argument seem to prove what the average Sime of that era thought about Gens?

Yes, such people all through the early books make it possible for readers to believe that after ZD Unity is actually possible.

I don't want to mention Channel's Destiny too much in this post, but I noticed that it appeared easier for the Gens in Mountain Chapel to suddenly think of their Sime children as monsters than for either Yahn's dad or Kadi's parents to suddenly think of their Gen children as animals. I wonder if that's true for most Gens and most Simes.

I wonder why Rimon and Kadi never tried to find her family. I wonder why they never even discussed it. (At least they didn't "on screen".)

No room in the books.

Wouldn't you love being unedited, like Stephen King!

Are virile Farris men going to go without sex? Especially the pre-Zeor ones who are not forever doing deprivation exercises? There are Farris by-blows all over the place--if the fathers actually know about them, if the mothers don't survive the fathers are likely to claim and raise them. Rimon's "cousins" may be either really cousins or they may be half-brothers.

No, I don't think they're going to go without sex. I can't help wondering, though, that when they see one woman after another die giving birth to Farris children why they don't make the connection and only have sex with a woman when she's not fertile. Or use

condoms - they've been around almost forever; it's not too likely that that bit of technology will be lost.

(Snipped your bit about Jord because I want to talk more about him in another post. Which, sadly for me, will have to wait till Monday. I noticed several other replies to my First Channel post but have to wait till Monday to get to those, too.)

Thanks for your reply - it's always a treat to get the author's thoughts on her own work.

Colleen

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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:43:51 -0700

From: Kaires Tevesu

Subject: [Simegen-L] Farris satyrs [was 'First Channel'] [aside]

Colleen wrote in part:

I thought it was only Gen women who routinely died giving birth to Farris offspring.

If so, they don't have to take heroic measures, just have their kids with Sime women...or strong Companions (who aren't stuck in a LOT relationship, of course).

=============================

From: "Leigh"

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 06:31:11 -0400

What I always wondered was why they never used their more mature understanding to go back over the incident with Yahn, and realize that they might have misjudged them---and perhaps go and try to buy him away from the farm. After all, he was their best friend in childhood...not a lot of loyalty going on, there. Not much of a great life for their

friend, either. Even if he was the nasty weasel they thought he was, he still deserved more than he got from them.

This could make a great AU (Alternate Universe) fic.

I *love* this idea. Somebody write it!

Leigh

"A difference of opinion is what makes horse racing and

missionaries." - Will Rogers

=======================

From: "AM Olson"

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:48:56 -0400 [953']

That's been my experience as well. In fact, IME, people generally improve with age, at least until they are really, really old.

I think a lot of that is how they're treated. Where I work, even the truly ancient and demented are rarely mean. And since I do see all the incident reports, I know of what I speak. Oh, there are incidents, particularly on the geropsych ward, since where I work doesn't use restraints unless absolutely necessary and even then, they keep them to the absolute minimum necessary to truly keep them safe when all other means fail.

That's one thing I find disconcerting about S-G. Everyone turns into a jerk once they reach middle age.

It was the fashion at the time to 'never trust anyone over 30'? It's actually interesting to look at how attitudes of the time a book was written come out in a piece that's supposed to be set in a different time.

But now, being north of 30 myself, I find it quite jarring.

Yup, there are a lot of things that I once read and really enjoyed that now, well, eh. I'll pass. I have way too many other things I'd rather be doing.

AM Olson

======================

Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:44:21 -0600 [954]

From: Winged Wolf

Colleen M. wrote:

Do you think it would have caused the Morcots pain if Rimon and Kadi had brought them back to Fort Freedom and showed them their new way of life? Serri could've grown up without ever killing.

Thanks for your thoughts - I really, really like your take on Yahn.

Colleen

Thanks. :)

Perhaps, but by the time they're really settled at Fort Freedom, and would be prepared to do something like that....would Serri already be an adult?

The Morcots might have been shocked or pleased by what they saw at Fort Freedom, but they most certainly would have been hurt by it, either way....like all the rest of the semi-juncts.

Kadi sees what being semi-junct is doing to Del, after all.

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From: "Leigh"

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:02:57 -0400

On 16 Oct 2004 at 8:48, AM Olson wrote:

I think a lot of that is how they're treated. Where I work, even the truly ancient and demented are rarely mean.

My great-grandmother was. Of course, she lived to be 106, and had some kind of dementia by the end. She was the sweetest thing until her mid-nineties. Then they couldn't even let her watch TV in the common room at her nursing home, because she'd attack anyone who

tried to change the channel.

That thought did cross my mind. Wonder if they ever considered the "Logan's Run" solution to Zelerod's Doom? Once they hit 30, send 'em to Carousel. ;-)

- Leigh

Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic.

============================

From: "Jacqueline Lichtenberg"

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:56:27 -0700 [955]

Colleen:

Your comment alone has been placed on the Sime~Gen comments page at

http://www.simegen.com/writers/simegen/testimonials/

There is also a note indicating that the rest of the replies and comments will be compiled for CZ and a link to CZ.

Thank you for letting us use this material -- it's truly riveting commentary.

LL&P

===============================================================================

From: "Jean Lorrah"

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:35:22 GMT [956]

-- "Leigh" wrote:

But most people don't. Most people don't get sour, don't get bitter, don't turn on every one around them.

That's been my experience as well. In fact, IME, people generally improve with age, at least until they are really, really old.

That's one thing I find disconcerting about S-G. Everyone turns into a jerk once they reach middle age. Not just the mere mortals – even the heroes. I know they're under stress, but I just don't find it believable that it would be like this for everyone. Or even most.

??? Rimon, perhaps, and Klyd certainly, but who else? Abel is middle aged in FCh, really old for a Sime of his day in CD. Is he a jerk?

I certainly didn't intend Risa and Sergi to turn into jerks in ZD. Do you read them that way? Just because Risa can't get along with Klyd? Do you see Digen as a jerk in MT? I don't see the pattern you claim to see.

I didn't really notice this when I first read the books. Probably because, as a young teen, the idea that adulthood made you a jerk seemed perfectly natural. ;-) But now, being north of 30 myself, I find it quite jarring.

You may certainly find that in the books written from the POV of teenaged characters, but is it in the ones from the POV of older characters? If so, then I am miswriting my own characters without knowing it!

Jean

======================================================

From: "Colleen M."

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:09:12 -0800

From: Gene Evans Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:54:19 -0700 (PDT)

I feel that Jord is the most heavily burdened character in the novel. First he becomes Sime instead of Gen and suffers his father's wrath. Then when he learns that this is a good thing because he is a channel, he turns out to be a mediocre one, outclassed not only by Rimon but also by Uel and then Zeth. Unlike Rimon, Jord can't stop killing because his transfer partner isn't his matchmate. So he comes in for another round of vilification for something that is a biological condition, not a moral failure. The only way he could have had it harder was if he had been gay on top of everything else. Rimon was *lucky* in a way that Jord wasn't. He is always either overshadowed by someone else or is just never good enough, but he does the best that he can. Given how high-strung Farrises are I doubt Rimon could have done nearly as well carrying such a load. I found him generally sympathetic, even heroic at times.

Gene, thanks for the different take (from mine, anyway) on Jord. Sometimes it's easier to see characters as sympathetic when seeing them through someone else's eyes. Sorry for not snipping your response; I didn't know what to snip because the whole thing was

thought-provoking. I wonder if Jord would've fared better in a different time - Klyd's time, or Digen's? Even if he didn't grow up in a household, if he'd gotten to one in time to disjunct or had been able to have channel's transfer from the first, he'd be much

healthier, physically and mentally. Living in Digen's time, especially, I suppose would've been much better for him.

Jean or Jacqueline, any hints as to who Jord comes back as through the years? (Or does he?)

Colleen

==============================================

From: "Colleen M."

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:20:46 -0800

----- Original Message -----

From: Winged Wolf

Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:44:21 -0600

Perhaps, but by the time they're really settled at Fort Freedom, and would be prepared to do something like that....would Serri already be an adult?

I'm not sure. I was always under the impression that Serri was just a little girl - maybe eight or nine - and First Channel took place over just two or three years. Since she's not a Farris, I wouldn't think it likely that she'd changeover at 10 or 11, and if she's a late bloomer like Kadi, she could be much older. (Of course if she's as late a bloomer as Kadi, the odds of her surviving changeover are very small, Fort Freedom or not.)

The Morcots might have been shocked or pleased by what they saw at Fort Freedom, but they most certainly would have been hurt by it, either way....like all the rest of the semi-juncts. Kadi sees what being semi-junct is doing to Del, after all.

True. I can see Abel urging Kadi and Rimon to find her family because not killing is so vitally important to him that I think he develops a bit of a blind spot to just how much that lifestyle hurts the semijuncts over time. Of course he's semijunct and I suppose in some ways it hurts him more than others, but in other ways he's a much stronger person than anyone in the book and has a deeper, more abiding faith than anyone else to pull him through trials without, apparently, quite the amount of emotional damage some of the others suffer. You know, I guess I could see Kadi never mentioning her family to anyone at Fort Freedom, at first because they're not close friends and then later just to avoid any kind of painful confrontation with Abel or some of the others about her family, especially her sister.

Colleen

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From: "Colleen M."

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:26:52 -0800

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:02:57 -0400 "Leigh" wrote:

That thought did cross my mind. Wonder if they ever considered the "Logan's Run" solution to Zelerod's Doom? Once they hit 30, send 'em to Carousel. ;-)

Hmm, another interesting AU. One in which the Simes do believe in Zelerod's Doom but either there aren't yet householdings and channels or they still see householders as such perverts that a Logan's Run type of solution would be more palatable than channel's transfer. ouldn't 30 be a bit old? That's more than 15 years after changeover. Maybe everyone gets to live 10 years after changeover and that's that. I wonder how many of those people would suddenly find that the householders don't seem so perverted after all?

Ok, now I'm just being silly.

Colleen

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From: "Colleen M."

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:34:31 -0800

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:56:27 -0700 "Jacqueline Lichtenberg" wrote:

Colleen:

Your comment alone has been placed on the Sime~Gen comments page at

http://www.simegen.com/writers/simegen/testimonials/

I hadn't been to that page before; there's one I'll have to explore in more depth.

Thank you for letting us use this material -- it's truly riveting commentary.

You're welcome, and thanks for the kind words.

===============================================================================

From: "Colleen M."

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:44:34 -0800

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:35:22 GMT "Jean Lorrah" wrote:

-- "Leigh" wrote:

That's one thing I find disconcerting about S-G. Everyone turns into a jerk once they reach middle age. Not just the mere mortals - even the heroes. I know they're under stress, but I just don't find it believable that it would be like this for everyone. Or even most.

??? Rimon, perhaps, and Klyd certainly, but who else? Abel is middle aged

in FCh, really old for a Sime of his day in CD. Is he a jerk?

Obviously I can't answer for Leigh, but I've always see Digen as a jerk in MT. Every time I read it, I just cringe for Ercy and the way he treats her. I don't recognize him.

Currently I'm 3/4 of the way through House of Zeor and for the first time, I'm seeing glimpses of the jerky Klyd I always see in ZD. I don't know why I never noticed them before. One of the joys of re-reading these books; there's always something different.

I don't think Risa and Sergi turn into jerks in ZD, however I didn't think they were anywhere near middle age then, either. Isn't that book just a few years after Ambrov Keon? And Risa was just a teenager in that one. I thought she was in her 20s in ZD and Sergi in his 30s. I don't think they'll ever become jerks, though, because of the atmosphere they live in. Keon is so completely different than any other Tecton householding we're given glimpses of that it's hard to imagine people turning hard and sour in middle age they way they seem to in other households.

And I've never thought Risa's inability to get along with Klyd really had much to do with Risa and a whole lot to do with Klyd. <g>

Colleen, antsy to get through Ambrov Keon and into Zelerod's Doom now.

===============================================================================

From: Ann Piccolo

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:31:34 EDT [956']

In a message dated 10/18/04 10:46:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

"Colleen M." writes:

Obviously I can't answer for Leigh, but I've always see Digen as a jerk in MT. Every time I read it, I just cringe for Ercy and the way he treats her. I don't recognize him.

I would have to reread it, but I have never felt as unsympathetic to him as all of that. He had very traumatically lost the rest of his family, and I always thought that behind his treatment of Ercy was deep love and absolute terror that he would lose her as well. I always thought that he was trying to protect her in the only way that he knew how, by making sure that he left no stone unturned and no symptom unmonitored. Haven't a lot of

doctors, especially at the time that MT was written, responded this way to the possibility of death?

Ann

===============================================================================

From: "Broommail"

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:45:06 -0400 [958]

Winged Wolf writes:

Colleen M. wrote:

From: winged_wolf@juno.com

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:53:45 -0600

Do you think it would have caused the Morcots pain if Rimon and Kadi had brought them back to Fort Freedom and showed them their new way of life? Serri could've grown up without ever killing. Thanks for your thoughts - I really, really like your take on Yahn.

Colleen

Thanks. :)

Perhaps, but by the time they're really settled at Fort Freedom, and would be prepared to do something like that....would Sari already be an adult? The Morcots might have been shocked or pleased by what they saw at Fort Freedom, but they most certainly would have been hurt by it, either way....like all the rest of the semi-juncts. Kadi sees what being semi-junct is doing to Del, after all.

Consider also that, between early deaths and young adults having to flee across borders to survive, that family break-ups and losing all contact with relatives is the NORM in these societies!

In addition - what if Serri grew up Gen and was killed? Would Kadi want to know that? Would the Morcots want to know that there's was an alternative they *might* have reached? What if one of the elder Morcots Killed Serri-turned-Gen? Also, at the point the Morcots had two adult children they, themselvesl might well be dead.

Kadi might have chosen not to look for her family for a variety of reasons beyond just "too-busy-surviving". Sometimes not-knowing is better than knowing. Not always, but sometimes.

---Broomstick---

Any Day Above Ground Level Is A Good Day

=============================================

From: "Broommail"

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:46:33 -0400

Subject: [Simegen-L] Re: First Channel

Leigh writes:

That thought did cross my mind. Wonder if they ever considered the "Logan's Run" solution to Zelerod's Doom? Once they hit 30, send 'em to Carousel. ;-)

You must have watched the movie - in the book one is put to death at 21. And you thought S-G had problems with the demographics...?

---Broomstick---

Any Day Above Ground Level Is A Good Day

================================================

From: "Broommail"

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:49:35 -0400

Colleen M. writes:

Jean or Jacqueline, any hints as to who Jord comes back as through the years? (Or does he?)

I could see him a Joel Hogan - another person who tries and tries, but is limited by bad luck/timing and genuine physical limitations. Jord *could* have been a good channel... but was born too early and didn't have what he needed to make a good foundation. Hogan *could* have been a good Companion... but was born in the wrong place, maimed by a berserker, and never had the proper healing/foundation on which to build.

---Broomstick---

Any Day Above Ground Level Is A Good Day

===============================================

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:02:38 -0700 (PDT)

From: Gene Evans

--- Jean Lorrah wrote:

It's the way she didn't get along with Klyd. Her emotional pyrotechnics were greatly disproportionate to whatever provocation there was. I read it as someone who had become used to being the biggest frog in the pond reacting badly to having to deal with a peer. She didn't hiss at him like Karen's cat but she came close at times.

Have fun,

Gene

=====

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to speak French.

=======================================

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:25:59 -0700

From: Tony Zbaraschuk

On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 02:02:38PM -0700, Gene Evans wrote:

--- Jean Lorrah wrote:

peer. She didn't hiss at him like Karen's cat but she came close at times.

Interesting. I tended to read the book as Risa being more right most of the time than Klyd, and him being the jerk.

Tony Z

Economics is not a zero-sum game, and the belief that it is at the root of all kinds of wickedness and nonsense.

--Firebug

===============================================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:31:26 -0700 (PDT)

From: Gene Evans

--- Colleen M. wrote:

Obviously I can't answer for Leigh, but I've always seen Digen as a jerk in MT. Every time I read it, I just cringe for Ercy and the way he treats her. I don't recognize him.

Digen didn't have to become a jerk, he started out as one. He always struck me as very self-centered. Not selfish, but self-centered. He had a dream and he wasn't going to let anything distract him from it, not even the fact that the rest of the world was on the verge of a breakdown.

It was a noble dream but Digen wasn't the right man to realize it. As the Sectuib of Zeor he was one of the few people in a position to shape the world for the better, but instead he was chasing his private obsession. As I recall he rationalized it by arguing that if

he could show people that one thing they thought impossible, a Sime surgeon, was achievable then other supposedly impossible goals such as Unity were also feasible.

Even if he had succeeded I don't think matters would have worked out that way. He would have saved some individual lives but not changed the trajectory of the world. For that he had to go into politics and it took him until middle age to accept that that was where he should be, however little he liked it.

Digen became less of a jerk, and a lot more responsible, as he aged.

Have fun,

Gene

=====

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to speak French.

================================================

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:23:07 -0600 [958']

From: winged wolf

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:44:34 -0800 "Colleen M." writes:

And I've never thought Risa's inability to get along with Klyd really had much to do with Risa and a whole lot to do with Klyd. <g>

Colleen, antsy to get through Ambrov Keon and into Zelerod's Doom now.

Well, I think it had a bit to do with both of them...Risa had a tendency

not to BELIEVE anything she heard about Klyd--from others, or from him,

lol.

--Winged Wolf

==========================================

From: "Broommail"

Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:55:04 -0400 ['959']

Gene Evans writes:

--- Jean Lorrah wrote:

I thought both Klyd and Risa acted liked spoiled jerks at a few spots – in which case they are no different than anyone else in life. That sort of flaw (when not taken to excess) is part of what makes a literary character believable.

I also get a sense of culture clash between the two sectuibs. And maybe there's inevitable friction between Tigues and Farrises. Part of ZD even covers Risa's understanding of sensitivity differences as she comes to understand them later in the book.

And yes, when the the "big fish" of two small ponds meet there is frequently some heated disputes and jockeying for power.

I always thought the conflicts between Klyd and Risa, and the necessity of those two people to have to work together even when they didn't like each other (even despised each other at times on a personal level) part of what made the book interesting to me.

---Broomstick---

Any Day Above Ground Level Is A Good Day

==============================================

From: "Leigh"

Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:33:27 -0400 ['964]

On 18 Oct 2004 at 18:26, Colleen M. wrote:

Well, now that you mention it...30 was the movie and TV series. In the original books, you shuffled off this mortal coil at age 21. Seven years of childhood, seven years of youth, seven years of adulthood.

Guess they couldn't find enough actors who looked 21 or younger for the movie...

-- Leigh

Why change horsemen in mid-Apocalypse?

===============================================

From: "Leigh"

Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:33:28 -0400

On 19 Oct 2004 at 0:35, Jean Lorrah wrote:

??? Rimon, perhaps, and Klyd certainly, but who else? Abel is middle aged in FCh, really old for a Sime of his day in CD. Is he a jerk?

I never cared for Abel. Don't know if I'd call him a jerk, but he's not very appealing to me.

I certainly didn't intend Risa and Sergi to turn into jerks in ZD. Do you read them that way?

Um...well...maybe not Sergi. But he was pretty young yet, give him time. ;-)

Just because Risa can't get along with Klyd?

No. It was actually nice to see someone who didn't fall at the Farris feet.

Do you see Digen as a jerk in MT?

Yes. Him and Im'ran both. I loved them so much in UZF, but couldn't stand them in MT. I almost wish I hadn't read it. I was happier not knowing what happened after UZF.

Leigh

"A difference of opinion is what makes horse racing and missionaries." - Will Rogers

==============================================

From: "Valorie Lennox"

Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:08:13 -0700

21? Given current research into how long it takes for humans to reach full mental maturity, that certainly would have handicapped the society. (And no, I haven't read the book, so that may indeed have been the point of the book.)

Who raised the kids? Even if the parents conceived them as early as physically possible, they would be orphaned at about 7 or 8. My observation of current 8-year-olds suggests that they are not all ready to fend for themselves.

Most of the society wouldn't ever reach full mental maturity. Scary prospect!

However, on the plus side, as a society, their health care bills would probably be low.

Keep well,

Val

================================================

From: "Leigh"

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 06:47:22 -0400 [964']

On 24 Oct 2004 at 21:08, Valorie Lennox wrote:

Yes, it was. It was not supposed to be a good thing.

Who raised the kids?

They were raised in government-run creches. That's why they had names like "Logan 3," "Jessica 6," and "Francis 7." Government-issue names!

-- Leigh

Why change horsemen in mid-Apocalypse?

========================================

Link to Part One