First Channel - List Thread

E-Selyn

Words from the Web

First Channel - List Thread

October 2004

Compiled by: Kaíres Tévesu

(Missing files contributed by Kate Kirk)

Link to second half of article

================================================================================

From: "Colleen M."

To: simegen-l@simegen.com

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:37:40 -0800

Subject: [Simegen-L] First Channel

It's been ages since I've reread the S~G novels so I just began them again last

week. I always read them in chronological, not publication, order so always

begin with First Channel. As always, when it's been a long time between

readings, I forget how much I like these books - I get so deeply involved in

them, I don't want to put them down, I don't want them to end, and I always

wish there were more. (For some reason, though I've enjoyed the S~G fanfic

I've read, fanfic doesn't do it for me the way it does in other fandoms. I'm

content with good Buffy fanfic, for example, and don't feel the need for more

eps or movies now that the series is done. But with S~G, I always want more of

the JLs.)

Anyway, I just finished up First Channel and a few thoughts occurred to me as I was reading it. First, I got to wondering why Yahn/Nerob is cast as a villain. Kadi and Rimon see him as cowardly and manipulative and clearly dislike him and he seems to me to be deliberately written in a way that makes the reader dislike him as well. I know I did the first time I read the book (when I was 15) and every time after that till this time. Actually, it was something that someone said on this list earlier this year that made me begin to see him in a more sympathetic light, and I sure wish I could remember who said it and what it was. But really, Yahn is not a villain. He's a very pathetic character -

raised among Simes, son of Simes, expecting to be a Sime and then - boom - Gen.

His world falls to pieces around him. Maybe he becomes manipulative but I imagine he thinks that's the only way he can keep on living. As for being cowardly - when people you used to think of as friends and family now see you as a food animal, I'd think that could turn anyone "cowardly." As far as asking Syrus for Kadi - I can understand why that would upset both Rimon and Kadi. Having someone you're not attracted to want you is uncomfortable and having someone else want your intended is never pleasant, and when you're all just 15, as they were, it's even worse. But the thing is, what Yahn wanted - Kadi for his mate if she turned Gen - was not improper in that time and place. Not what Rimon and Kadi wanted, true, but not out of bounds. As I said, I can understand why Rimon and Kadi disliked him - and I'm impressed with them for trying to buy him away from Syrus - but why do readers dislike him? Why was he written in an unfavorable light?

My thoughts about Yahn got me wondering about his father. I wonder what he would've thought and done had he been given the opportunity to see Fort Freedom and talk with the people there. It seems to me, from the conversation he had with Rimon at Summer Fair, that he never quit loving his son.

The Morcots never quit loving Kadi either, as evidenced by the fact that they packed up and left the genfarm. I wonder how many Sime parents are able to truly convince themselves that their Gen children are simply food animals now and that they don't love them anymore.

I wonder why Rimon and Kadi never tried to find her family. I wonder why they never even discussed it. (At least they didn't "on screen".)

Every time I read this book, I keep wondering where Rimon's cousins came from. At one point, he's thinking about all the Farris wives who've died giving birth through the generations and how it affected their husbands so deeply that the men never marry again. So where did Zeth's dad come from and where did Lenara come from? Obviously, the Farris men don't have to marry to have children, but if they know that giving birth to Farris babies will kill the mother, are they really going to continue having children, married or not?

Finally - I just cannot like Jord. I try, because I see him try, but he's really just an unlikeable person. I understand that he suffered mental abuse from his father as a newly changed-over Sime but other people suffer abuse and don't grow up to be nasty and cruel and he almost always is. I don't get it. Is he in disjunction crisis 24/7 for the rest of his life? His parents are decent people, his father was truly sorry for the grief he put Jord through in his younger years, he's got a supportive community, he's got a loving wife, but he's never nice to her. I'd even classify him as verbally abusive. (Though to be fair, I'd have to classify Willa as nagging.) I want to like him but I just can't. Is it just me? Am I reading him all wrong? Maybe I'll change my mind sometime down the road - after all, I used to dislike Yahn and now I feel badly for him and wish his life could change.

A heartfelt thank you to Jacqueline and Jean for such wonderful books. You can tell how much I love them by the fact that I refuse to loan out my copies! I won't take a chance on losing these.

Colleen

================================================================================

From: "Jacqueline Lichtenberg"

To: <simegen-l@simegen.com,

Subject: Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:50:03 -0700

Colleen:

I'm sorry it took so long for me to find and answer this!

It's a lovely essay -- and I'm sure Jean will want to fill in some of the

blanks here.

May we use it in the simegen.com general newsletter? And I'd like to post

it in the reader comment section on www.simegen.com/writers/simegen/

Would that be OK with you?

LL&P

Jacqueline Lichtenberg

================================================================================

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:53:45 -0600

Subject: Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

From: Winged Wolf

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:37:40 -0800 "Colleen M." writes:

Anyway, I just finished up First Channel and a few thoughts occurred

to me as I was reading it. First, I got to wondering why Yahn/Nerob

is cast as a villain. Kadi and Rimon see him as cowardly and manipulative and clearly dislike him and he seems to me to be deliberately written in a way that makes the reader dislike him as well.

I don't really think that he was...it is written from Rimon and Kadi's

viewpoint, which is TREMENDOUSLY naive at that stage...both of them see

him as "just a gen"....they have already filed him away, mentally, so

they're willing to see his behavior in the worst possible light.

He's a very pathetic character - raised among Simes, son of Simes, expecting to be a Sime and then - boom - Gen. His world falls to pieces around him. Maybe he becomes manipulative but I imagine he thinks that's the only way he can keep on living.

I don't think he was being manipulative...I honestly think that he was trying to SAVE Kadi. If Kadi becomes a Gen, and she's kept on the farm as a breeder with him, then she won't be killed. He has to be looking at her with brand new, adult eyes...she doesn't look like a Sime, and she's getting a bit long in the tooth for changeover. I prefer to think he really DOES care about her, and wants to save her life.

As for being cowardly - when people you used to think of as friends and family now see you as a food animal, I'd think that could turn anyone "cowardly".

I didn't see him as being in the least bit cowardly. He was clearly afraid--and had all the reason in the world to be afraid. But it didn't prevent him from working within the system, and making a request that would have surely seemed outrageous....what HE knew, which Rimon and Kadi clearly didn't, is that what he was asking was actually a valid option--that's why Syrus didn't say no. He ignores their reaction to it, because he's an adult in a way neither of them actually is, in spite of Rimon's already being Sime. Rimon never had the chance to grow up, suffering as he did from bad kills and shorting. He understands the situation a lot more deeply than either of them.

But the thing is, what Yahn wanted - Kadi for his mate if she turned Gen - was not improper in that time and place. Not what Rimon and Kadi wanted, true, but not out of bounds. As I said, I can understand why Rimon and Kadi disliked him - and I'm impressed with them for trying to buy him away from Syrus - but why do readers dislike him? Why was he written in an unfavorable light?

I actually like the way it was written, because it leaves the reader to figure out for themselves what they believe his motives actually were, and how much of a villain he actually was. We know what he actually did and said, and we know how Kadi and Rimon felt about it--what we don't get at that stage, is what was going on in HIS head. But at that stage in the novel, we SHOULDN'T kow...because it hasn't yet been established that Gens really are ordinary people. It's a suspicion, but as the main characters don't really know it, neither should we.

I wonder why Rimon and Kadi never tried to find her family. I wonder why they never even discussed it. (At least they didn't "on screen".)

What I always wondered was why they never used their more mature understanding to go back over the incident with Yahn, and realize that they might have misjudged them---and perhaps go and try to buy him away from the farm. After all, he was their best friend in childhood...not a lot of loyalty going on, there. Not much of a great life for their friend, either. Even if he was the nasty weasel they thought he was, he still deserved more than he got from them.

Kadi and Rimon appeared to want to pretend that their past didn't exist...that the people they knew didn't exist. They had their own corner of the world set aside, where things were different. If Kadi had tried to contact her parents, it would only have caused them pain, in any case...Kadi was a fairly practical person, and I think she must have realized that.

They DON'T necessarily know....just because it happened to their dad, doesn't mean it's going to happen to them. And death in childbirth among junct Simes is likely not tremendously uncommon in that era.

A heartfelt thank you to Jacqueline and Jean for such wonderful books. You can tell how much I love them by the fact that I refuse to loan out my copies! I won't take a chance on losing these.

Colleen

I'll definitely second that. :)

Winged Wolf

================================================================================

From: "Jean Lorrah"

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:41:23 GMT

Subject: Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

-- "Colleen M." wrote:

No, he's not a villain. He's just one of most of us, who are not improved by adversity. Most books are written about people like life's real saints, who always rise to every occasion. Face it: when the majority of people are treated unfairly by life, they whine, they cajole, and they make nuisances of themselves. Rimon, Kadi, and Abel are bigger than life, modeled on life's saints. They wouldn't be special people if every other character in the book was equally resilient, courageous, tolerant, etc. And a book in which every

single character who is not a villain is perfect or at least likeable would not

read as realistic.

I know I did the first time I read the book (when I was 15) and every time after that till this time. Actually, it was something that someone said on this list earlier this year that made me begin to see him in a more sympathetic light, and I sure wish I could remember who said it and what it was. But really, Yahn is not a villain. He's a very pathetic character - raised among Simes, son of Simes, expecting to be a Sime and then - boom - Gen.

You've put your finger on it: we easily feel sympathy for pathetic children, but we are turned off by pathetic adults.

His world falls to pieces around him. Maybe he becomes manipulative but I imagine he thinks that's the only way he can keep on living. As for being cowardly - when people you used to think of as friends and family now see Yahn a food animal, I'd think that could turn anyone "cowardly". As far as asking Syrus for Kadi - I can understand why that would upset both Rimon and Kadi. Having someone you're not attracted to want you is uncomfortable and having someone else want your intended is never pleasant, and when you're all just 15, as they were, it's even worse. But the thing is, what Yahn wanted -Kadi for his mate if she turned Gen - was not improper in that time and place.

But did he really want Kadi, or did he just want what Rimon had? We don't have

Yahn's point of view, but I assumed as I wrote him that inside he was gloating that at last Rimon the golden-boy-Sime-killer had lost something important to him--and Yahn could rub it in by taking Kadi away from him. Never underestimate the power of envy.

Not what Rimon and Kadi wanted, true, but not out of bounds.

Which is exactly why he dared.

As I said, I can understand why Rimon and Kadi disliked him - and I'm impressed with them for trying to buy him away from Syrus - but why do readers dislike him? Why was he written in an unfavorable light?

Because when compared with the world's heroes, all of us ordinary weak characters stand in an unfavorable light. Yahn is not actively evil. He's just ordinary. When life deals him lemons, he just gets sour.

Yes, such people all through the early books make it possible for readers to believe that after ZD Unity is actually possible.

I wonder why Rimon and Kadi never tried to find her family. I wonder why they

never even discussed it. (At least they didn't "on screen".)

No room in the books.

Every time I read this book, I keep wondering where Rimon's cousins came from.

At one point, he's thinking about all the Farris wives who've died giving birth through the generations and how it affected their husbands so deeply that the men never marry again. So where did Zeth's dad come from and where did Lenara come from? Obviously, the Farris men don't have to marry to have children, but if they know that giving birth to Farris babies will kill the mother, are they really going to continue having children, married or not?

Are virile Farris men going to go without sex? Especially the pre-Zeor ones who are not forever doing deprivation exercises? There are Farris by-blows all over the place--if the fathers actually know about them, if the mothers don't survive the fathers are likely to claim and raise them. Rimon's "cousins" may be either really cousins or they may be half-brothers.

Not when he has an adequate transfer partner, but he's a psychological mess and always will be.

His parents are decent people, his father was truly sorry for the grief he put Jord through in his younger years, he's got a supportive community, he's got a loving wife, but he's never nice to her. I'd even classify him as verbally abusive. (Though to be fair, I'd have to classify Willa as nagging.) I want to like him but I just can't. Is it just me? Am I reading him all wrong? Maybe I'll change my mind sometime down the road - after all, I used to dislike Yahn and now I feel badly for him and wish his life could change.

It's pretty much the same syndrome: we don't like weak adults in fiction any more than we do in real life. In real life, though, weak people are not constantly tested the way they are in fiction, so they often get years and years of being likable before the stress and aches and pains of age turn them into annoying, querulous, constantly complaining old people.

So the basic answer to all of this is that the heroes and villains in S~G are surrounded by ordinary folks like the majority of humans. It's simple realism that not all people are brave and strong and wise.

Jean

================================================================================

From: "AM Olson" Subject:

Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:45:54 -0400

Face it: when the majority of people are treated unfairly by life, they whine, they cajole, and they make nuisances of themselves.

Actually this is some of what I find unrealistic about the original books. This isn't what I've seen. It's an impression people are taught, but not what real people do. Most people, when treated unfairly by life, just get on with it. Many might fuss for a little bit, but life does go on and so do they.

And a book in which every single character who is not a villain is perfect or at least likeable would not read as realistic.

I've never met *anyone* who was not likable to at least someone or some few people. Even the most heinous killers in history have friends. Someone likes them. Such is human nature. Look at the women who marry death row inmates. Someone who is perfectly not likable is just as unrealistic as someone everyone likes. George R.R. Martin is a master of this whole balancing act. All his heroes and villains are all both good and cruel in turn, and which is which ...? Of course he works with 800-1000 page books at a pop now. Buteven in his short stories, his characters are all heroes to themselves, but to their enemies/clients? (Tuff Voyaging is a wonderful, wonderful collection of short stories that really do grab onto the whole 'what is good' issue. Haveland Tuff is both a saint and a demon at the same time, depending on how you look at him.)

But most people don't. Most people don't get sour, don't get bitter, don't turn on everyone around them. No, they also don't rise to the occasion and fix the problems, they just get on with their lives as best they can. Believe me, I see it and have seen it. When you work every day with the dying or the extremely poor or the permanently brain damaged ... you learn that the vast majority of people really are good. They rise to the occasion in truly amazing ways. Only a handful, and they're the ones who get noticed, unfortunately, sue or refuse to let go or become stingy or hateful. Most people care and most people *are* generous and good.

The prevalence of unabashedly stupid, cruel or hateful people in fiction does drive me away from authors who use them. Particularly the stereotype of the 'rich kid who fell on hard times and turned mean.' It's just as annoying as the 'poor kid who got lucky and became a saint.' People just aren't like that. They're not predictable other than in that other than a tiny handful who have significant psychological problems; they just aren't perfect, either perfectly bad or good.

Are virile Farris men going to go without sex? Especially the pre-Zeor ones who are not forever doing deprivation exercises?

Not to mention post syndrome. <wry grin>

In real life, though, weak people are not constantly tested the way they are in fiction, so they often get years and years of being likable before the stress and aches and pains of age turn them into annoying, querulous, constantly complaining old people.

That's so not true. It's just not the great world building tests seen in fiction. We all go through life changing tests all the time. They're just not quite so, um, easy to see ... at least hopefully. (I've certainly had near fiction levels of drama in my life in the last couple years.) But even the great crises, most people pull through and become stronger and more generous and caring in the end. Yes, some people do manage to turn themselves into annoying, querulous old people (like my parents) but most aren't like that. They're kind and funny and generous and warm. I should know. I work with them and see them playing with the dogs and kids and gardening and listening to music and enjoying their lives and families.

The thing is, that in the end, for every truly nasty person I've met, I've also met 50 or 100 I've liked. That's a pretty strong ratio.

It's simple realism that not all people are brave and strong and wise.

Nope, but I'd say most are, at least when it comes right down to the crunch. Common sense may be unfortunately uncommon, but bravery and generosity are surprisingly not. Maybe it's just because I don't watch the news but instead watch the people around me, but I won't believe that everyone is mean and cruel because I've just not seen it. Until I see it, I won't believe it. That's the way I choose to live. TV lies. Radio lies. Newspapers lie. Mrs. Jones' smile on ward 3 doesn't lie, or Mr. Smith's cookies in the hands of her mother and a little girl holding a toy truck don't lie. I'll take what I see with my own eyes, thanks.

And yes, I've watched my own parents turn increasingly bitter and cruel as they sit in front of the idiot box and learn to hate and be discontent. Everyone I've known who spent their lives with real people, not the idiot box or in a bottle/pastine bag, has been at least a decent, caring human being toward their own family and friends, no matter what else happened to them, where they started out or whatever else they believed.

AM Olson

================================================================================

From: "Jacqueline Lichtenberg"

Subject: Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:15:06 -0700

Jean wrote:

This is so very true! However, I should point out that a given person may be "brave and strong and wise" in one area of their life, and a whining wimp in another. People have strong defenses in one part of their personality and huge vulnerabilities in others (Indiana Jones hates snakes – because he's brave he endures when he must, but he still hates snakes. It's a weakness in him that endears him to us -- because we all have strengths and weaknesses.)

Which is really the essence of a truly dynamite Romance Novel -- you know you've got a match when one person's strengths are where the other person is weak and vice-versa, so combined they are strong-all-over and an unbeatable team. The trick is to forge a Relationship where the two don't use their strengths to "hit" at the other's weak points.

This might be termed not "Intimate/Adventure" but "Intimate/Romance" (not all Romances have any intimacy in them at all).

================================================================================

From: "Jacqueline Lichtenberg"

Subject: Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:24:14 -0700

Ann Marie wrote:

Nope, but I'd say most are, at least when it comes right down to the crunch.

You are of course absolutely correct -- the vast majority of people have these heroic qualities within them and from time to time, events bring those qualities out.

The Sime~Gen premise is simply that -- humans are essentially GOOD, and given a problem like the Sime and Gen mutations to overcome, they will overcome that problem with compassion. Fortunately, the mutation gave humanity a nudge toward greater compassion -- so the percentage of people with these sterling traits you've observed has actually increased.

That is why Unity not only happened, but held together despite the Secret Pens -- or maybe because of them. We haven't written that book yet -- (Oliver Teague's book).

LL&P

================================================================================

From: "Jacqueline Lichtenberg"

Subject: Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 12:07:20 -0700

Folks:

I saw an item on TV about a website called audible.com -- where you can download audiobooks instead of going to a bookstore. The item was about the idea that the MP3 players have become so widespread, that this new website company has just experienced a huge jump in their earnings, and a period of explosive growth. Apparently MP3-ready audio recordings of books are the new "biggest thing going" for those long nasty commute hours, or the dutiful jog in the park.

I looked over the website -- and they are basically using the audiobooks done by the big publishing houses on their blockbuster titles. But I noticed their sf/f section was pretty empty, especially of Intimate/Adventure. And they do some of their own recording – though mostly of current periodicals.

Considering Colleen's reaction to First Channel (which echoes some other readers' reactions to the other books) -- maybe some of you on this discussion list would like to recommend S~G to them, and perhaps they might give us a try.

http://www.audible.com/ -- at the bottom of the page click "contact us" -- and click to recommend content. That brings you to the following form page:

http://www.audible.com/adbl/site/wishList/requestListDisplay.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0754167783.1097866376@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccckadcmkfhdijfcefecegedfhfdhfi.0&uniqueKey=1097866394250

What Colleen said is the kind of thing that just might convince them

to give S~G an airing. Do you have a similar story to tell them?

LL&P

================================================================================

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:54:19 -0700 (PDT)

From: Gene Evans

Subject: [Simegen-L] Re: First Channel

Colleen M wrote:

I wonder why Rimon and Kadi never tried to find her family. I wonder why they never even discussed it. (At least they didn't "on screen".)

I think they were too busy surviving. When you can't even afford window glass

hunting for lost relatives is a luxury.

I feel that Jord is the most heavily burdened character in the novel. First he becomes Sime instead of Gen and suffers his father's wrath. Then when he learns that this is a good thing because he is a channel, he turns out to be a mediocre one, outclassed not only by Rimon but also by Uel and then Zeth. Unlike Rimon, Jord can't stop killing because his transfer partner isn't his matchmate. So he comes in for another round of vilification for something that is a biological condition, not a moral failure. The only way he could have had it harder was if he had been gay on top of everything else. Rimon was *lucky* in a way that Jord wasn't. He is always either overshadowed by someone else or is just never good enough, but he does the best that he can. Given how high-strung Farrises are I doubt Rimon could have done nearly as well carrying such a load. I found him generally sympathetic, even heroic at times.

Have fun,

Gene

================================================================================

From: "Leigh"

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:12:45 -0400

Subject: Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

But most people don't. Most people don't get sour, don't get bitter, don't turn on everyone around them.

That's been my experience as well. In fact, IME, people generally improve with age, at least until they are really, really old.

That's one thing I find disconcerting about S-G. Everyone turns into a jerk once they reach middle age. Not just the mere mortals - even the heroes. I know they're under stress, but I just don't find it believable that it would be like this for everyone. Or even most.

I didn't really notice this when I first read the books. Probably because, as

a young teen, the idea that adulthood made you a jerk seemed perfectly natural.

;-) But now, being north of 30 myself, I find it quite jarring.

- Leigh

================================================================================

From: "Colleen M."

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:52:12 -0800

Subject: Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

From: Winged Wolf

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:53:45 -0600

I've never heard this interpretation before and hadn't thought of it myself, obviously. I love it. It's a generous, kind-hearted interpretation and I can see him thinking that way. I sort of wish someone would write the rest of Yahn's story, but only sort of because I imagine it's a sad one.

I can see this, too.

This could make a great AU fic.

pain, in any case...Kadi was a fairly practical person, and I think she must have realized that.

Do you think it would have caused the Morcots pain if Rimon and Kadi had brought them back to Fort Freedom and showed them their new way of life? Sari could've grown up without ever killing.

Thanks for your thoughts - I really, really like your take on Yahn.

Colleen

================================================================================

From: "Colleen M."

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:45:58 -0800

Subject: Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jacqueline Lichtenberg"

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:50:03 -0700

Colleen:

May we use it in the simegen.com general newsletter? And I'd like to post

it in the reader comment section on www.simegen.com/writers/simegen/

Would that be OK with you?

Absolutely - feel free to use it in either or both places.

Colleen

================================================================================

From: "Colleen M."

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:09:58 -0800

Subject: Re: [Simegen-L] First Channel

From: "Jean Lorrah"

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:41:23 GMT

And a book in which every single character who is not a villain is perfect or at least likeable would not read as realistic.

I agree with that and those kinds of stories get tiresome.

You know, I was thinking more about this last night, finishing up

Channel's Destiny (and -surprise! - I don't dislike Jord in CD) and it struck me that it's quite a feat for an author to write a character that's not likeable yet write a book that's so compelling. I mean that if I'm reading a book and it has characters that I just find unlikeable, I may finish the book but it's not going to be one I'll keep coming back to and rereading. The S~G novels are different. I think there are characters in every single novel that I find unlikeable at one time or another (my reactions change over the years, sometimes surprising me) - yet I'm still compelled to reread these books. That's an art.

You've put your finger on it: we easily feel sympathy for pathetic children, but we are turned off by pathetic adults.

Which is why so many scammers haul kids around with them when they're panhandling. (Las Vegas is full of panhandlers. Oddly, I've never seen someone that is clearly homeless - pushing his or her worldly possessions around in a shopping cart - begging for anything. I have seen people in brand-new Nikes hang around the bus stops with a handful of kids asking for money.)

**********************

Link to second half of article