Simelan as a universal language

Dear All,

I agree with Jean that the premise that Gens can't learn Simelan is
logically absurd.  Simelan might have started out as a language only
understandable by Simes, but that wouldn't have lasted past the first
generation of Simes who settled down to raise a family.

If you can't communicate with your kids in your native language, you have
to speak to them in some other language.  Those kids would grow up
speaking that other language, and kids in subsistance-level cultures
marry early, and have kids of their own a year later.

Up until the time of UZF, when industrialization and increased lifespan
led to later marriages, the average Sime citizens would have a year or two
of their lives, tops, when they didn't have to communicate with children
on a daily basis.  If Simelan didn't allow that when it began, it would
have developed the capacity very quickly--or it would have been discarded
for a language that did.

Oh, I'm sure Simes would have their own little turns of phrases,
emphasized by nageric punctuation, which Gens and children would have to
infer, rather than sense directly.  But the information content would have
to be in the words alone, or Simelan couldn't have a written form.  After
all, paper can't send nageric signals.

The written form of Simelan, then, would have to be easily comprehensible
to Gens and children.  Presumably the computer would be an in-Territory
reinvention, and the Internet would most likely reform as a way to
coordinate all those Sime Centers scattered across the landscape.  (Just
as our current Internet formed to coordinate scientific communication
between isolated universities.)

Out-Territory Gens wanting to cash in on the information or mercantile
possiblities would learn Simelan--at least enough to get along.  After
all, 99% of the databases and all the programming would be in Simelan, and
the vast majority of the potential customers would be native Simelan
speakers.

Groups like the CoP would carefully stick to the small English fringes of
the Web, to avoid contamination, and would be VERY careful to prevent
their kids from learning enough Simelan to surf in forbidden territory.

And that tactic would be effective only as long as it took the Tecton to
hire someone who spoke that Gen language and post a Web page.

Tschuss,

Mary Lou

Exactly what I was saying -- there has to be some form or subset of Simelan
that is used for speaking to children, and which kids acquire during their
first critical period. Then those that change over acquire the adult-Sime
forms during First Year, and those who establish (at least once there are
Householdings so that Gens aren't kill fodder, but people) acquire the
Gen-experience-specific forms during their First Year.

>Oh, I'm sure Simes would have their own little turns of phrases,
>emphasized by nageric punctuation, which Gens and children would have to
>infer, rather than sense directly.  But the information content would have
>to be in the words alone, or Simelan couldn't have a written form.  After
>all, paper can't send nageric signals.
>
Small quibble -- there is nothing that says that written langauge _has_ to
represent _sounds_, just because the alphabetic languages we're familiar
with happen to. Written Chinese is ideographic -- which is the reason that
literate Chinese who speak mutually incomprehensive spoken "dialects" can
communicate through the medium of brush and paper. Each character
represents a concept, which may have completely different spoken forms in
the different "dialects" that are lumped together as "Chinese."

Even in alphabetic languages, the connection between a given grapheme and
the phoneme it represents is totally arbitrary, and generally unsystematic
(I believe that Hangul is systematic, altho it's still arbitrary, and
Tolkien created the Tengwar to be phonologically systematic, but that
hardly counts because it's a fictional alphabet, not one that's used for a
living language). If a language also depends on non-sound elements (so that
"ba" with one non-sound element means one thing while "ba" with a different
non-sound element means something else entirely), the written langauge will
develop marks to indicate those elements. These could be termed "letters"
and given equal weight with the letters that represent auditory phonemes,
or they could be termed "punctuation" and regarded as a separate set from
the letters, but they will be created and used if they are required to get
meaning across in written form. So if adult-form Simelan uses nageric
flucturations to impart certain elements of meaning, there will be
squiggles that serve as indications of them on the paper. They may not
"look like" the real thing, any more than the letter K on the paper "looks
like" the sound of /k/, but they will be understood as representing those
elements of the face-to-face code just as the letters of written English
are understood to represent parts of spoken English. Being literate means
knowing and being able to interpret the code.

"I do believe my crucifiction before the public has about reached its limit."
                                Admiral Husband Edward Kimmel

Leigh Kimmel, Ph.D. student in history, Southern Illinois University

> The written form of Simelan, then, would have to be easily comprehensible
> to Gens and children.  Presumably the computer would be an in-Territory
> reinvention, and the Internet would most likely reform as a way to
> coordinate all those Sime Centers scattered across the landscape.  (Just
> as our current Internet formed to coordinate scientific communication
> between isolated universities.)

Why assume that the Internet is an in-Territory invention?  It's true
that Simes lead in certain scientific developments (for instance,
chemistry), but Gen Territories seem to have considerable industrial
advantages, and probably have a somewhat larger population.

One of the themes of _House of Zeor_ was that neither side of
humanity was _superior_ to the other; rather, they were
complementary, each with talents the other hadn't developed (an
aspect which is remarkably underdeveloped in the books, it seems to
me.)  Why assume that only the Simes had the ability to make such
a development?

Plus, it seems to me that Simes would be rather distrustful of a
communication method that _doesn't_ allow them their nageric
communication abilities.  We get into enough problems on the
Internet today with lack of an easy means to express tone of
voice, gestures, and all the rest of our nonverbal communication.

Tony Z

Dear Mary Lou,

Good points about the kids being unable to communicate with their Sime
parents! I ran into a similar situation in real life. I had an
acquaintance who was bilingual--she spoke English and American Sign
Language. However, she had trouble communicating with her own family
because they knew only Spanish. She's deaf and I suspect that she was
taught English so there would be a bridge for her to learn ASL

>Dear All,
>Out-Territory Gens wanting to cash in on the information or mercantile
>possiblities would learn Simelan--at least enough to get along.  After
>all, 99% of the databases and all the programming would be in Simelan, and
>the vast majority of the potential customers would be native Simelan
>speakers.
>
What's to stop the Gens, once they have their own technology, to have
their *own* corner of the Internet and Web pages which are "Gen-language
only"?

Nola

Nola,

I'm sure there would be English corners of a Tecton Web, just as there are
corners of our own Web which aren't in English.  But they would be so
small and self-limiting that they wouldn't be very influential.  After
all, the vast majority of the servers would be in-Territory (or in Sime
Centers) and the computers would be of in-T manufacture, since they
require selyn technology and that means channels.  Maintainence would also
have to be done in-Territory, and the programmers would have to know
Simelan to talk to their support people.

You'd end up with a computer culture conducted in Simelan, and the
anti-Sime groups would have to look awful hard to find even an
out-Territory server who wasn't to pro-Sime for them.

Tschuss,

Mary Lou

Sept. 12, 1996
Tony writes, "One of the themes of _House of Zeor_ was that neither side of
humanity was _superior_ to the other; rather, they were
complementary, each with talents the other hadn't developed (an
aspect which is remarkably underdeveloped in the books, it seems to me.)
Why assume that only the Simes had the ability to make such a
development?"

        Right on, Tony!  If I have anything to do with it, when we get
around to the invention of the computer, it will involve Gens just as
much as Simes.  However, it will probably be a Householding invention,
which will happen in-Territory, because as long as the divisions into
Sime and Gen Territories remain, that is the only place where Simes and
Gens interact freely and naturally.  Such an interface is essential to
progress.

        Oh--and I forgot to comment on someone's comment yesterday that
Gens and children would not have nageric terms in the language used to
them.  Come on, people!  Here we are, a whole bunch of ANCIENTS,
perfectly comfortable discussing things Sime and Gen in nageric terms!
From unicorns to tachyons, humans have always been able to imagine
perfectly well  what they do not experience.  Jean

>        Oh--and I forgot to comment on someone's comment yesterday that
>Gens and children would not have nageric terms in the language used to
>them.  Come on, people!  Here we are, a whole bunch of ANCIENTS,
>perfectly comfortable discussing things Sime and Gen in nageric terms!
>>From unicorns to tachyons, humans have always been able to imagine
>perfectly well  what they do not experience.  Jean

Yes, but they wouldn't be communicating in terms that _require_ that
perception to make sense. For instance there might well be a set of
prepositions (or postpositions, if Simelan is head-final) that deal with
spatial relationships in nageric terms. These could only be used by someone
who could zlin and perceive where something is in relationship to selyn
fields. Gens and children could understand intellectually what they mean,
but wouldn't be able to meaningfully interpret "go get the x that's
<nageric relation> the y" because they can't zlin and therefore can't
perceive the quality that the distinction -- and thus communication --
depends upon.

"I do believe my crucifiction before the public has about reached its limit."
                                Admiral Husband Edward Kimmel

Leigh Kimmel, Ph.D. student in history, Southern Illinois University

On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Leigh Kimmel wrote:

> Yes, but they wouldn't be communicating in terms that _require_ that
> perception to make sense. For instance there might well be a set of
> prepositions (or postpositions, if Simelan is head-final) that deal with
> spatial relationships in nageric terms. These could only be used by someone
> who could zlin and perceive where something is in relationship to selyn
> fields. Gens and children could understand intellectually what they mean,
> but wouldn't be able to meaningfully interpret "go get the x that's
> <nageric relation> the y" because they can't zlin and therefore can't
> perceive the quality that the distinction -- and thus communication --
> depends upon.

But it's well established (no pun intended) that Donors routinely do
exactly that--because they understand theoretically how selyn field
gradients work.  Selyn sources aren't hard to identify, since people and
batteries are easy to see, and in-T Gens would rapidly learn the
aproximate field attenuations provided by various materials.

So, if a Sime says "bring me the x at (nageric relationship) to y", a Gen
of reasonable intelligence would be able to locate y, then search for x in
the area which is approximately the calculated (nageric relationship) to
it.  After all, if there are so many x's around y that a guesstimate won't
work, then the Sime would have come up with a more specific descriptor,
even if the instructions were given to another Sime.

Sept. 12, 1996
Dear Friends,
Most of us communicate in terms of sight and hearing, with occasional
lapses into feeling.  A few people, though, communicate in terms of
taste and smell.
        When you recognize what mode someone is in, if you need to get
along with or persuade that person, switch to that mode.  It's fairly
easy to say, "I hear what you're saying" or "I understand your feelings"
instead of "I see" if you realize that the other person is in hearing or
feeling mode.  Personally, I find it rather weird to say, "What a tasty
idea," but I have a friend who requires taste mode.  The problem is,
there are often no clues to what mode the person is in (I have yet to figure out 
what mode Jacqueline is in most of the time--probably zlinning).
        Gens who live among Simes actually have a great advantage:  they
_know_ that half the month Simes are in zlinning mode.  They don't have
to guess.  And they also know (we're talking Householders, here) that their
feelings show in their nager.  Any Gen can learn to manipulate
Rensimes.  Companions (and every Gen has the potential to become at
least a 3rd, remember) can manipulate channels.  And of course Simes and
Gens are _people_, so some Gens are so smooth at manipulation that the
Simes never know what hit them (I really must write about Oliver Tigue,
con man extraordinaire), while others set Simes' laterals on edge with
their clumsy attempts.  And some Simes resent every time they realize 
that a Gen got to them nagerically, while others just relax and accept it.
        What Simes don't want to admit is that Gens have the advantage 
over them.  Therefore they insist that Gens can never master Simelan.
Well, what if they can't?  It doesn't matter, as they can easily master
Simes.
        We've had this same argument over and over.  The linguists on the
list might as well give up.  We all know that Gens can master Simelan, 
just as a blind person, a deaf person, a color-blind person, etc., can master
his or her native language.  But Jacqueline will not be budged on this
point.
        Jean

-- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] --

JL here:

My question is - why are we having this discussion at all and why are you all

talking as if we've never had it before.  We spent literally years and turned

out what must be over 100,000 words of correspondence on this subject and
they
were all published in AZ and Forum.  We all know the child version of Simelan

because Jean used it in FIRST CHANNEL and CHANNEL'S DESTINY.

And we all know that Gens can get along quite well in Simelan and never
notice a lack of anything they have to say.

Why are we rehashing this?  The Tecton on the Web is a far more interesting
and totally new topic - and already that thread of the discussion has led to
questions I don't have a clue how to answer (see the other posts I'm sending
with this one).


Live Long and Prosper,

Jacqueline Lichtenberg
Creator of the Sime~Gen Universe

> My question is - why are we having this discussion at all and why are you all
> talking as if we've never had it before.  We spent literally years and turned
>
> out what must be over 100,000 words of correspondence on this subject and
> they
> were all published in AZ and Forum.  We all know the child version of Simelan
> because Jean used it in FIRST CHANNEL and CHANNEL'S DESTINY.

Really?  I didn't notice that.  Of course, it _has_ been a while since
I read the books.

As for the other point, maybe some of us _weren't_ there for those
earlier discussions.  (I have some of the fanzines, but not all, and
I don't recall language discussion in the ones I have.)  I might also
point out, from my experience on other mailing lists, that this sort
of thing _will_ happen again; we'll discuss a topic _ad nauseam_,
agree to give it a rest, and then someone  new will show up and
brightly say "Hey!  Shouldn't there be some different Sime languages?"

> Why are we rehashing this?  The Tecton on the Web is a far more interesting
> and totally new topic - and already that thread of the discussion has led to
> questions I don't have a clue how to answer (see the other posts I'm sending
> with this one).

And how many times does an instructor in channelling have to explain the
little details to the new students, every year...

The Tecton on the Web is interesting, but some of it (for instance,
the recruiting potential for both the Tecton and the CoP/Diet) is
fairly obvious, and I don't know enough about selyn technology to
say anything on the technical side of Sime computing.

Tony Z