Chat room log for New Year's Day 2001 -- see the Formal Meeting going on at the same time.

JL: Oh, GORGEOUS -- picked right up from B-5 and my whole pet peeve
with B5
        JL: I've been watching B5 reruns with absorption.
        JL: I do love that series -- they did so much right.
Patric: Howdy Ann...
    AOlson: Hello
        JL: lets make talk for side-comments and CHAT for the log.
    Patric: Done.
            AOlson is learning to deal with a new irc client
        JL: oh, boy new software -- just the thing!
    AOlson: I hate dealing with new software ... which is why I use an
ancient computer and text editor to write in
            Patric laughs...
    AOlson: Hey, I probably use the most antiquated computer on a
daily basis of anyone here *grin*
    AOlson: Hello N'omi
    AOlson: Hello dejla
     N`omi: hello Jacqueline, AnneMarie, Patric and everyone
     dejla: hello everyone
            Patric waves...
            JL waves back
            AOlson wonders why it is so many people spell her first name
with an 'e' at the end. *sigh*
        JL: Hey, bunch of you are here early.
        JL: sorry Ann
     dejla: Anne of Green Gables, probably...
     N`omi: sorry, Annmarie.. I was trying to do it from memory!
            AOlson laughs ... its fine ... even Deborah insists my fist
name ends with an e
    Patric: Its habit, Ann, same as putting a K on the end of my name...
    AOlson: I know better, Patric
     N`omi: actually, my grandaughter middle name is elizabeth anne
        JL: You know, E's are invisible to me because when I was a kid
learning to read the alphabet someone said they were silent -- so I figured
that meant they didn't matter.  So when I learned to spell, I just felt
there had to be enough e's but they didn't have to go anyplace in
    Patric: Yeah, becasue I howl about it..  You dont..  You just mutter..
 CptButton: sorry, buy AOlson makes me think of America Online....
     N`omi: I didn't, Patric.. I have known a couple of other Patric's in
my time!
    AOlson: NOOOOO!
 CptButton: <evil grin>
    AOlson: Sorta like the Hebrew vowel marks I've never been able to
figure out
    Patric: Gods, he's right!
     N`omi: LOL JL! I was taught the same thing.. and argued that I should
be counted as spelling wromg if I dropped them!
JL: You're kidding, N'omi -- I thought I was the only one!
    Patric: Cool N'omi...  I dont know of any others with a C...
     N`omi: not at all, Jl! O think it was the mode of teaching young ones!
     dejla: That's all right. They spelled my last name wrong on my
drivers' license and then insisted I bring in my birth certificate and
prove them wrong.
     N`omi: well, one first man I knew is prolly older that you, Patric!
        JL: But not everyone interprets "they're silent" to mean they don't
     N`omi: I did, JL!
 CptButton: I have enough trouble keeping Jo Ann straight at work.
        JL: whoa -- who's dejla -- I know I know but I don't know right now.
     dejla: First two letters of my first name, middle initial, first two
letters of last name. Deborah J Laymon.
     N`omi: I am glad to be back with you all.. I have missed you since
Bonnie's class ended.. I know I know my fault.. but still, I have
    Patric: Ditto...  She is one of the regulars...  Can't remember her
other name...
     N`omi: hiya Deborah!
        JL: Ah Deb Laymon!!!  Of COURSE!!!
        JL: Hi Deb!
            Patric chuckles...
            dejla waves
            Patric idles for a moment...
    AOlson: Its been as long for me, N'omi, but more 'cause I'm usually
doing twenty five other things on weekends ... like writing!
        JL: Anyway, wanted to heap praise upon this Deb for the marvelous
ppt display!!!!  Big hit at Darkover.
     dejla: I'm home because we had houseguests due to the snow, and I'm
awake at the moment...
            dejla blushes
            N`omi wants to know details, please? What is ppt? what did Deb
do for Darkover?
     dejla: Powerpoint isn't that difficult. And I was trained in PR in
grad school, y'know.
     N`omi: grins, at least are active on the list, Annmarie!
        JL: Well, training shows -- really nice presentation display.
     N`omi: ahh, I have only started to explore Powerpoint
    AOlson: For now ... starting tomorrow I'm going to be mostly absent
again ... had this last week off entirely
     N`omi: what is the url, pleaseeee?
        JL: I have it up on the web - but not linked to anything.
     N`omi: ahh, so that explains the activity!
            AOlson looks at that last sentence and realized it probably
should have read something to the effect AOlson is mostly off
        JL: URL for the Powerpoint -- is that what you wanted?
    AOlson: Yeah, but I'm back to working on "Away >From the Mirror" which
is not S~G
     N`omi: yes please, JL?
     dejla: It was fun, really, and a nice relaxation from writing lesson
plans. We're moving to support Word at the office and becoming dual shop is
not fun.
     N`omi: thanks you, JL!! <going to see it>
        JL: Actually, one of the things I admired about this Powerpoint is that it
does not violate any of the rules I have learned about PR writing, ad
writing, nonfiction writing, etc etc.  And that is very rare, even though
PR and Ad writing are not my specialty.
JL: Eric!
        JL: Welcome!
        JL: I have a favor to ask of you -- just occurred to me this morning.
    AOlson: Hello Eric
      ECJB: Greetings.
            Patric returns, and waves to Eric..
            ECJB waves back...
 CptButton: for the holiday:
    AOlson: Go right ahead, JL
        JL: is
the Powerpoint that Deb Laymon made for us that we had at Darkover.  N'omi is
watching it.  But that's not the favor I had in mind.
     N`omi: back! I will have to see it afterwards.. as I cannot watch two
things at once! not enough ram
        JL: Eric -- what we need for our School of Philosophy is a really
good Christian page, with an explanation of what makes Christian beliefs
important to the believers, and of the tenets most important, and a list of
links to good sites.  This would be for WRITING STUDENTS who've never met a
Christian (and there are some, we've got folks all over the world).  Could
you make me a few pages like that?
     dejla: Mmmm.  You'd have to have a few, all right. When you look at
the differences between Catholics and Protestants, and then get into the
various Protestant versions... there's as much difference there as there is
in politics.
      ECJB: As a matter of fact, this is something I have been struggling
with ... more CONTENT than CODE.
            dejla speaking as the daughter of an American Baptist minister...
        JL: Yes, lots of links -- but someone has to pick who knows what
they're doing.  Not ME!
        JL: Really?  Baptist?
        JL: Interesting -- well, we could use a page of that too.
            N`omi chuckles
     N`omi: Jl. have you or someone done the same for jews?  I am so sick
if seeing tallit worn inappropratly on ads, and in writings, etcetc
        JL: I've got some Bhuddist stuff coming in -- and I really need
bunches more of everything else we can think of.
     dejla: AMERICAN Baptist. Not at all Southern. They've been taken over
by a vocal and narrow-minded minority.
     N`omi: of course, there is chadisim clear to reconstructionist.. and
all the in betweens <shudder at the work>
     N`omi: here here, Deb!
        JL: N'omi -- I have a quickie demo page up for Judaism -- mostly
links. If you have a pet-peeve like that -- do an essay on it.  Few
paragraphs and some links and we'll post it.  That is exactly the sort of
thing I mean -- what writers need to know about other people's customs to
portray them believably.
AOlson: Are you going to allow Islam, or is it forbidden?
     dejla: My father went to a seminary whose students voted in the
fifties to desegregate -- and presented the faculty with the ultimatum --
on the theory that segregation was unChristian.
    AOlson: Cool Deb
     N`omi: islam is one I certainly need help on.. I hope someone dfoes
apage on that one!
        JL: No, I really NEED Islam -- just have never found anyone who
could do it.
JL: Hi Karen --
     N`omi: hi Karen!
        JL: I'm here beating up on people to make them work.
    Patric: Hi Karens..  Which is which?
     dejla: Islam is difficult. It's not something I have a lot of sympathy
with, but there are many devout people who believe in it...
    AOlson: I've done the research, but finding someone who lives it is a
problem ... my own perception of Islam is highly skewed towards the
Sufi/Sunni variety
     Karen: Hi, I'm on with two IRC's, and if you like, you can op me.  I'm
    AOlson: Hello Karen
     Karen: Hi everyone.
N`omi: every religion has its right and left wing
    Patric: Whee! Got  ya both in in a shot!
  KarenMac: Thanks.   Should I log both rooms.
        JL: great -- Karen if we get enough people, maybe we'll get one
whole intact log.
    AOlson: Although the web is a great place to find out about Islam, as
it is generally quite tech friendly as far as religions go
        JL: Yes, please log both.
            Patric mutters... botin=both, and I am also logging both windows.
 N`omi> yet, we need folks who practice.. to help use define the nuances that are so easily violated
<ECJB> So am I.
<JL> And yes, Ann -- what we need is someone who LIVES the philosophy to speak for it.
<dejla> That's true. When I was doing research on Tunisia and needed some information on Islam for color, it was easy to find info.
<N`omi> so am I... if I can stay connected, that is
<KarenMac> I rarely lose my connection, so you should have intact logs, at least of our Chat.
<AOlson> Most of the people I know who are Islamic, are far too busy with their own lives
<JL> At any rate, Ann -- if we can't find a person, could you please do up a page of links for us?
<AOlson> Sure, with a note as to which variety you're looking at ... which is the real kicker for Islam ... Sunni is *so* different from Shi'ite
<JL> what I want to build is a Philosophy section that will serve as a resource for writers -- both to find out how to portray a character, and to get ideas for stories by looking for the natural conflicts.
<JL> Nothing is hotter than a religious controversy for setting up a plot-conflict.
* AOlson continues to mutter about Ethiopian, Sub-Saharan, Turkish, Bedouin and so on
<dejla> Certainly Islam seems to require the same sort of time budget that Chasidim and some of the specific Catholic schools require. Which I admire. I don't know if I have the commitment to emulate it, but I admire it.
<JL> Take Mixed-Marriage for example -- lots of romances tackling that now, but how many really understand WHY a mixed marriage has problems?
<dejla> I just realized the other night that I'm doing, of all things, Joan of Arc in Simegen.
<CptButton> there was someone on rasfw a month or two back griping about portrayal of islam in sf and citing his group as a counter example.  I can dig an email up if you like
<AOlson> I certainly wasn't willing to deal with a mixed marriage ... didn't even want to marry a male
<N`omi> yes, mixed marrieges prvide for wonderful conflict!
<JL> Well, that's the orthodox end of the Islam practice.  Most people are much more distant and casual in their practices.
<AOlson> I'd really appreciate that, CptButton
<N`omi> kewl, Deb!
<KarenMac> Considering I grew up in a mixed marriage religious home, I can give you an idea, and we rarely had conflict.
<N`omi> mixed marriges occur is gay relationships also (having been in a few)
<AOlson> You can certainly say that again, JL ... some are so distant they don't even practice circumcision or Halal
<JL> Yes, Ann, precisely.
<dejla> I think it depends on the strength of conviction in the believers. I could never have married a Catholic boy... I would never have signed a promise to raise my children Catholic.
<JL> Ah, now there's a story, Deb!
<N`omi> relationships are relationships.. no matter the official recognition of marriage!
<AOlson> Which is one of the fun things about writing in the Islamic world ... its really hard to screw up too badly because so much of the religious practice varies so wildly depending on where you are
<Patric> Hey MaryLou... :)
<AOlson> Hello MaryLou
<MaryLou> Hello!
<JL> One popular story-motif right now is the arranged-marriage for reasons of State (Kings and Dukes etc).  Suppose someone with Deb's attitude were betrothed to a boy at birth -- and the boy converted to Catholicism and she couldn't get out of the marraige.  CONFLICT!
<JL> MaryLou!!!!!!  Wheee!!!
* MaryLou sniffles.
<N`omi> but the character you presebnt has to be believale.. so their religious practice has to match whatever religion they practice.. how ever small
* MaryLou is trying to get off of the pseudephed today.
<N`omi> hi MaryLou
* JL hands MaryLou Ronnie Bob's starred-cross box of kleenex.
<dejla> yes, and no. Marriage, being a civil ceremony as well as a sacrament, has ties that can't be easily sundered, and when you actually form that kind of commitment, you enter an entire new phase of the relationship.
<MaryLou> lol
<AOlson> Yeah, but if you mess up something like the practice of exactly how the prayers are performed, its not such a big deal
* N`omi shares her puffs over to MaryLou
<N`omi> exactly!
<JL> I still have that box -- picture of it posted online somewhere.
<N`omi> LOl Oh I would love to see that one, JL!
<JL> Ann -- that's one of the beauties of working in a far-future sf universe -- you can invent details that support your story, not twist your story to support the details.
<KarenMac> You can always refill the box....
<dejla> They've done a lot of studies on the difference between living together and being married [and gay marriages are performed by some faith groups] and when the commitment is there, it changes the way you percieve the relationship. It's easier by far to walk away from a living together partnership than a married partnership.
<JL> Karen -- have you any idea where the Darkover pix are in /sgfandom/  ??? 
<AOlson> Which is why I write futuristic and fantastic romances ... not comtemporary ... I'm terrified of putting something wrong in contemporary
<AOlson> Hello Kaas
<N`omi> oh yes, I am not arguing that, Deb!!  I was only trying to bring into acount that mixed marrieges (religion wise) affects the relationship.. and is great for confict
<AOlson> Hello Betsy
<MaryLou> Hi, y'all!
<N`omi> hiya Betsy
<JL> Hi Kaas -- Betsy --
<N`omi> hello kaas
<Betsy1> Merry Meet, Everyone
<Kaas> whisper cptbutton Hi!
<JL> Betsy - can you give us more name to identify you?
<KarenMac> Should be our Betsy Westphal.
<Betsy1> Karen's right.  It's me.
<JL> We've got a couple -- and you know me and NAMES.
<Patric> Hi Betsy!  Kass...
<JL> aha!  Then you're the one sent me a short story?  Or part of one?
* Patric is catching up...
<JL> It was in html format, right?
<Betsy1> Yep. 
<Betsy1> I didn't know we had any other Betsys
<JL> I just printed it and it's upstairs waiting to see if I ever get to my reading chair this week.
<Betsy1> Especially not ones that use "Merry Meet" or "Blessed be"
<JL> Well, maybe not in the S~G operations, but there's a bunch of Elizabeth variations in my life at the moment.
<KarenMac> I don't think I saw that story.
<Betsy1> Good luck getting to the reading chair.
<Betsy1> Karen, you didn't
<Betsy1> Long story
<JL> Karen - you will see it, I'm sure.  Right now it's in development.
* KarenMac smiles. "If you want me to help, just shout."
<JL> Betsy -- did you also send me a summary of the story idea earlier?
<Betsy1> Very early development, if at all
<Betsy1> No, I didn't
<JL> Yeah, Karen's got a reading addiction.  Especially to S~G. 
<Betsy1> No, I didn't send a summary.  That's another -long- story
<JL> OK, then I've got two stories in development at this time.
* KarenMac is running out of reading material, and no TV, for a multitude of reasons.
* AOlson tries sliding up to Karen in a friendly way with a manuscript in hand
* JL uh-ho Ann's got karen's full attention.
* Patric laughs... Ann, you silly.. ;)
* AOlson bats eyelashes at friendly type editor person
<MaryLou> Jacqueline, is your second the Den and Rital we workshopped at Darkover, or is someone else writing as well?
* ECJB chuckles...
* Karen smiles at Ann. "We'll see what you have."
<N`omi> Hello Margaret! beat ya here! <grins>
<MargareTZ> Hi All
<AOlson> It isn't S~G, but rather M&S for pro-publication
<Patric> Hi Margaret...  Which one are you, please?
<N`omi> LOL Ann
<JL> Margaret! 
<MargareTZ> so I see N`omi
<AOlson> Hello Margaret!
<Betsy> Sorry I had some technical difficulties there for a moment
<MargareTZ> Patric I am Margaret I. Carr
* Patric admits freely to being braindead..
<AOlson> Sokay ... happens
<Patric> Margaret!!!  Welcome!
<MargareTZ> hi JL, glad to be back
* AOlson wonders just how good a new year's even Patric did have
<JL> Yeah, old-home reunion here.  Look at all of us!
<Betsy> Some of us go back *years*...
* Patric snerfs and quite literally forgot it was new years eve until about 10:30pm...
<JL> Karen -- I have not a single note on who gets what awards -- don't even know what awards we have to issue.
<MargareTZ> uhuh, except for N`omi, haven't seen any of you for a while
* Karen smiles, as she's been stuck here in a snowy house since Saturday.... I never did get out for New Year's
<JL> I have spent all my time on the Corp shit this week.  Can you help?
<MaryLou> Not since Darkover, at least.
<Betsy> How was Darkover this year?
<MargareTZ> yikes! have that ahead of me!
* Patric waves to Seanara, BEFORE Karen!
<AOlson> Hello Seanara
<Karen> Well, we have the Tech-ton awards (technical awards)  The silver and gold Yo-Yo's, the Risa Tigue recycle awards, but not that many nominees for any of them.
* N`omi wants an award! <chuckles> ohh, does she have to *write* to get it?
<JL> Hey Seanara!  Good to see you here.
<MargareTZ> hi Seanara
<Seanara> Hi, everyone. Good to be here. ~~appreciative warmth~~
<MaryLou> Hello!
<JL> Karen -- quick define the awards would you please?
<JL> ~~hugging Seanara~~
<JL> We have to figure out what everyone's been doing while I haven't been watching.
* Karen sighs.
* Seanara returns JL's hug
* JL what would I do without Karen????
<Karen> Tech-ton is the technical awards, (I believe) to keep the domain running.
<Karen> Shen, you can do a lot without me.
<JL> The Digen Award is for Meritorious Service above and beyond the call of Duty -- service to S~G. 
<MargareTZ> who started the Good Deed stuff? That really deserves an award even if it means creating a new one!
* Patric agrees...
<JL> That was Jean's idea taken off of a suggestion on the list -- who suggested the paypals deal for Karen, do you remember? 
<JL> You're right -- I think the one who suggested the paypals thing should get a Digen.
<AOlson> Yes, that was a wonderful idea
* N`omi wants the Digen award
<JL> It was one of the guys --
<Karen> Don Jaramillo suggested paypal;
<JL> Good -- N'omi you work for it, you'll get one next year.
<Betsy> Yes, and it fits into the Digen Award concept well, as it was "above and beyound..."
<MargareTZ> ouch. I have it on the hard drive that died this morning.
<N`omi> ahh, that dreaded word.. work!
<dejla> It was a terrific idea.
<Betsy> The message has to be somewhere on the server
<MargareTZ> then I nominate Don for the Digen
<AOlson> I'll second that nomination!
<JL> Yes, and Jean had been thinking about it and Don got ahead of her, and then the GOOD DEED site came together nicely with Lois's work.
* ECJB is looking at the URL for the Powerpoint  page JL posted earlier...*NEAT*!
<JL> Oh, Lois is putting up one of my novels this month.
<MargareTZ> so nominate Jean and Lois
<Betsy> Maybe, if somebody else suggested the idea & Don suggested PayPal, they could share or both get the Digen
<JL> the Powerpoint is Dejla's  -- praise her!
<Karen> Shouldn't we do this vote thingie in the other window?
<Betsy> I didn't think we were voting yet
<JL> Jean is elligible for a Digen -- quick before she gets here so she doesn't run and hide.
<MargareTZ> just preliminary discussion
<JL> I've won one -- but I am not sure Jean ever did.
* Karen is laughing. Jean should have one.
<JL> Not voting, no -- conspiring.
<Betsy> Well, we can give it to her even if she isn't here, in absentia
<Seanara> It's about time she won one, then.
<JL> She'll be here.
<Karen> Then she is running late.
<AOlson> Give Miz Teague an award named after a Farris ... hmmm ... sounds iffy to me
<Betsy> We should get done conspiring before she arrives
<MargareTZ> okay, I put formal nomination in sgchat
<JL> OK, Don Jaramillo and Jean get Digen Awards for PAYPALS and GOOD DEED.
<JL> Yeah, good Margaret -- nominate them formally!!! 
<Patric> Karen, you jotting these down?
<Karen> Well, the only Tigue award we have is for recycling computers, and making computers available to those who don't have them.
<JL> Oh, here's Jean -- get in her face!
<Karen> I'm logging.
<MargareTZ> added nom for Don
<AOlson> Hello Jean
<JL> I don't see your nominations in #sgchat
<MaryLou> Hello, Jean!
<MargareTZ> hi Jean
<jean> Hi
<MargareTZ> I did them
<JL> Maybe you're in the wrong room -- it should be #sgchat
<N`omi> recycling computers? cool!! where can I go to donate and receive?
<JL> Hi Jean -- look the gang's all here and Chandra said she's coming too.
<MargareTZ> no, you and everyone else there
<N`omi> wb Kaas
<Patric> Try it now..  Might have been my error..
<MargareTZ> scroll back to just before Jean entered
<JL> Basically the recycling of computers usually starts on simegen-l and goes from there.
<Karen> We can find someone who needs a computer, and we can set you both up to exchange.
<MargareTZ> you mean redo the nominations, Patric?
<Kaas> We heh
<JL> Hi Chandra!
<Patric> Yes, please, Margaret...
<AOlson> Hello Chandra
<JL> Yo Kaas again.
<Patric> Chandra!  bounce bounce bounce... :)
<ChandraMH> Hi
<ChandraMH> LOL
<JL> Folks - this is the formal introduction of Chandra L. Morgan-Henley who will be the new head of our school operations, most especially re-doing all my yucky pages.
<ChandraMH> It's been a dog's age since I used mIRC.  Good thing I haven't lost ALL my memory yet.
<N`omi> hello Jean!
<AOlson> Good to meet you Chandra
<Patric> Ann..  She is REALLY cool, too...  !!
<MargareTZ> hi Chandra
<Karen> You could have gotten in on Techtools/chat, which is the Java chat website.
<N`omi> glad to meet ya Chandra!
<ChandraMH> Hi y'all... eventually I will learn who everyone is.
<AOlson> Ah, great!
<JL> chandra -- we have some of our school's registered students here who took the courses we have up.
<JL> Introduce yourselves folks!
<Karen> I posted that to the list just awhile back, to gather anyone else who may not have mIRC
<JL> Don't be shy -- Chandra is good people.
<ChandraMH> afkfas... doorbell
<Patric> Hi Carol!
<CarolC> Hi
<AOlson> I was one of the original vict*%^ *ahem* students in the Essence of Story class
<MargareTZ> I took Essense of Story and audited the Editing class, Chandra
* Patric ahems...
<AOlson> Hello Carol
<JL> Who is CarolC?
<Patric> Castellano
<ChandraMH> bak
<Karen> It should be Carol Castellanos
<CarolC> Castellanos
<AOlson> Oh yes, and I was the guinea pig for the editing class
<JL> Ah, great -- Yo Carol.
<Patric> Even if I didn't spell it right..
<Betsy> Guinea pig?
<JL> yes, Ann - AOlson is a wonderful, brave soul who volunteers for us to experiment on.
<AOlson> It was one of my stories Bonnee got to beat up on
<Patric> Oh listen to her!  She loved it...!
<AOlson> I appreciated it greatly and am waiting for someone to do a first read on it
<AOlson> The revised version that is
<Betsy> Is it M&S?
<Karen> A lot of people learned from the class at the time, and are still learning from that.
<AOlson> Yes
<ChandraMH> Well, right now I'm beating myself over the head learning Javascript -- hope to have a handle on it soon so I can concentrate on the real "meat" of the school thing.
<JL> Go on up to #sgchat and nominate for the Digen if you can think of anyone who should get it.
<AOlson> My first reader was due to have her baby on the 28th of December ... when I get anything back is anyone's best guess
<Patric> Chandra, we gotta compare notes sometime... :)
<MargareTZ> hmm, maybe Bonnie and Slick for helping with Editing class?
<AOlson> I hate Javascript enabled pages ... slows so much stuff down
<Betsy> Actually, AMO, you may get it sooner than you think.  Once the kidlet is born, she will not be getting much sleep & may end up reading...
<Patric> Thats a broad staement, Ann... 
<ChandraMH> Well, I'm trying to streamline the top level page so people can see most of what there is to see without having to scroll.
<JL> Any other nominations for service above and beyond all human reasonableness?
<AOlson> Yes, unless of course it is done by a master ... but then I have to swim upstream against a lot of bad web site designs
<Karen> PATRIC!!!!!!!!!  Without question.
<AOlson> I would really appreciate that Chandra
* Patric chuckles with Chandra. That's a goal of a lifetime..
<JL> Nominate him then.
<Karen> Beyond all reasonableness....
<CarolC> Yes I agree.  Without Patric I would be lost on some stuff.
<JL> Yes, that's Patric all right.
<Seanara> I second that nomination of Patric.
<MargareTZ> yes, nominate him Karen
<ChandraMH> In order to do that I'm using a mouseover-nested menu system but I need to know enough Javascript to customize it.
<Patric> I can help you with that, IF you can figure out why MSIE 5 hates that frame, and MSIE 4 doesnt...
<jean> Jacqueline, please list all the awards, so everyone won't be nominated for the first one when they fit later ones better.
<AOlson> Garf ... just be careful .. it is so easy to get all this stuff tangled up and confuse stupid people like me *grin*
<ChandraMH> Tell you what, I'll come up with an answer for that this week.  ;)
<JL> We did that before you came Jean.
<Karen> Feel free to list them again if you want, Jean.
* Patric snorts at Ann...
<JL> We're starting with the Digen -- then the Tech-Ton (for tech expertise). 
<ECJB> Scrolling back...I mista mussed it.
<Karen> Maybe you can clarify them more than I can.
<jean> I have no idea what they are.
<JL> Yeah, we keep forgetting year to year. 
<Patric> Chandra, definitely do.  I am stumped.  Its gotta be something really SIMPLE...
<AOlson> Watchit with that snort Patric or you *will* show up in one of my stories *grin*
<Karen> They haven't changed much during the years we've had them.
<Patric> Ann, you are far from stupid...
<JL> <Karen> Well, we have the Tech-ton awards (technical awards)  The silver and gold Yo-Yo's, the Risa Tigue recycle awards, but not that many nominees for any of them.
<AOlson> Hello Broomstic
<Betsy> Maybe we should put it somewhere ont he website so we won't forget from year to year
<Patric> Hi Broom!  I was hoping you'd show up...
<AOlson> I can be stupid when I want to be ... ~~lets light shine through blond hair and out eyes~~
<Karen> The award winners are on a website, obviously named "Awards"
<Patric> Betsy..  Ther IS a place, but Patric has been lousy at maintaining it!
<JL> Ah, Broomstic -- isn't that the one who sent me an outline of a S~G story?  Great -- glad to see you here!
<Betsy> Oh, AMO, if you put Patric in a story, would he be a lord or a sharm lord...
<Patric> Ann, now with an E, you are sillier and sillier...
<AOlson> It depends on how bad he is to me ... I was thinking of Mikhail Chernoye, actually
<JL> Sharm Lord -- I vote for Sharm Lord
<AOlson> Comes with writing
<Betsy> I don't know about the maintenance, but maybe it should be more prominent
<JL> somebody second the closing so we can vote?
<AOlson> LOL!
<Betsy> Mikhail Chernoye??
<AOlson> He's a hoot, too ... have some of a plot for a story with him on the spike
<JL> Let's see some aye's up there quick like.
<Patric> It will be..  marge is taking over the SGFandom, and she will be able to feature it more consistently..
<JL> OK, I want a single motion up there that says let's award all of them a Digen.
<Broomstic> Hi all - think I got this figured out now
<Betsy> I had the same prob, Broomstick
<Patric> Welcome back..  Hi Lisa..
<JL> Welcome aboard Broomstick -- what's your name? 
<AOlson> Hello Lisa
<Lisa> Hi Patric
* ECJB thinks that those who work here are award-able...which seems to include all present at some point or other.
<Broomstic> Oh, you want my REAL name, huh?
<JL> Let's see a bunch of ayes in favor of all of them getting this one!
<AOlson> Hmmmm Patric as a Sharm Lord ... hmmm, definately could go ... but which Demense?
<Patric> I just remember the "flying em" sig line.  Too funny..!
<Betsy> Well, maybe something *real-er* than a clearning device...
<JL> Anyone hasn't voted get your Aye in #sgchat
<jean> I want to claim Patric ambrov Keon.
<Patric> Clearning: Combination between Learning, and cleaning?
<jean> He is a definte male Tigue.
<Betsy> Typo, Patric
<JL> That's Patric the Clearning Demesne
<Broomstic> No, it's a flying device.
<ChandraMH> clearning - cyber learning?
<AOlson> Broom stick as learning device ... swat someone with it to knock some sense into them?
* ECJB chuckles...
<Betsy> There are Teagues in Russia, so that fits
<Patric> Drat.  Wrong window..  Erf!
<dejla> Like the man said about the mule -- you got to get his attention first...
<N`omi> what did I miss?
<AOlson> Random chatter and stuff about the Digen Awards
<Patric> They are picking on me, N'omi!
<AOlson> And where I'm going to stick Patric as a Sharm Lord
<MargareTZ> vote for Digen award, Jean, Don, Lois and Patric
<Betsy> N'omi, you also missed some conspiring
* Karen smiles. "We pick on you because we like you."
<JL> OK, we have our Digens for the year -- Tech-Ton next.
<N`omi> ohh dear!!
<JL> who had contributed massively in the tech area this year?
<N`omi> poor Patric!
<AOlson> Only place he'd go is Sergei ... which could ba a lot of fun depending on when *evil grin*
<Broomstic> What's a Digen award for?
<Betsy> AMO, it's simple, which Demesne can stand up to a Teague Sharm Lord?
<N`omi> where does the Buffy award go? <sic>
<JL> we have one nominee for the Tech-ton -- who else?  Dancer?
<JL> Jenn?
<Karen> Digen award was for meritorious service
<Betsy> How about Chandra for taking on the redesign project?
<ECJB> Option E:  All of the Above.
<Broomstic> Hmm, Digen isn't for martyrdom?
<AOlson> So sorry to hear about the 'speach impediment' Jean
<ChandraMH> Ack!  I'm still pulling my hair out over Javascript!
<N`omi> I vite Aye
<AOlson> *snerf* Broomstic
<Betsy> Doing something that earns you a Digen *is* a form of martyrdom!
<Broomstic> OK
<JL> Who else is tech-ton award
<jean> There is always next year for people who haven't been here very long.
<Patric> Surviving it is a form of martyrdom...
<JL> Oh, yes, the Digen winners are martyr-ready-firmware.
<Betsy> Well, I think Chandra deserves an award for starting on the r-do, and another one next year for doing it
<Karen> Then nominate Chandra....
<Patric> Tech: Most of our tech is in presentation this year, right?
<Karen> Chandra has been in our fandom quite awhile, and has just returned.
<JL> WEll, you've done some stuff with the carousel.
* AOlson wonders if excessively long fingernails is the keyboard equivalent of a lisp
<JL> That button-sized one we're launching.
<Karen> Tech can be scripts, anything
<JL> and Patric takes the absolute PRIZE for his work with (and donation of running space for) FORMS PROCESSING.
<Patric> No, I dont meant the carousel...  I was thinking of Claire and her redesign..
* ChandraMH hides
* N`omi moans
<Karen> Claire would also qualify.
<JL> Oh, that's an art award.
<Karen> I don't think we have an art award.
<JL> Not sure it's tech -- but it's electronic art and I'd suppose that qualifies as tech.
<AOlson> That's fixable
<jean> Do we have an Arensti Award?
<Betsy> Maybe we should have an art award?
<JL> Right, we don't and can't keep track of what we do have.
<ECJB> Then make one?
<Betsy> And somebody's working on keeping track of what we do have
<Karen> I don't think we ever had a real Arensti award.
<Karen> About time we did, since the paper zines didn't have such an award.
<JL> OK, we'll award her the Arensti for her artwork. 
<Betsy> Then maybe we should
<Betsy> The 1st annual Arensti
<JL> Let's finish the Tech-ton first -- then we'll do artwork.
<Karen> One award at a time though... we're working on Tech-ton
<Patric> Well..  art is subjective, and redesgin means to make it work with the current tech, not just paint pretty pictures..
<jean> We've got Patric with a second, Chandra without.
<jean> Jenn and Dancer with a second.
<MargareTZ> also Jenn & Dancer with second
<JL> Yes, will someone please second Jenn and Dancer?
<N`omi> wb Ann
<MargareTZ> 4 is a good number
<Saracen> Urf, my connect got chomped ... this is Ann Marie
<JL> They've kept us on the air despite losing our T-1 connection.
<MargareTZ> Karen seconded
<Kaas> It seems odd, why don't you just give them to whoever you want to?
<MargareTZ> wb AnnMarie
<Patric> Saracen...  I KNOW that name....?
<ChandraMH> Didn't the Saracens invade somebody sometime?
<Patric> Ah!  Ok..
<Betsy> Lots of somebodies, actually
<Saracen> They were what the Cruisaders called the Arabs
<jean> Giving them to whoever we want to is the process we are engaged in here, Kaas.
<ChandraMH> History's not my strong point.  ;)
<Kaas> Sure Jean.
<ChandraMH> Grammar, spelling, HTML... I'm a little better at those.  <G>
<Betsy> That's OK, some of us spend too much time and money on reading history, watching the History Channel, etc
<Saracen> Its the nick I use more than my real name, actually
<JL> Karen - or someone who cleans this log will have to rearrange some of the statements in the #sgchat!
<JL> Everyone give me some ayes up there.
<JL> Friends Romans and Simes - lend me your ayes!
<N`omi> we did, JL!
<Karen> I planned to clean both logs as I always do, but this one is incomplete, you were here before I was.
* Saracen really has to cut hooves
<MargareTZ> 7 ayes so far
<Broomstic> Sort of like I use the "broomstick" handle in real life as much as my given name, I suppose
<Betsy> Does all the chit-chat in this one end up in a log somewhere?
<ECJB> I'll send you mine when it is closed, KLM.
<Karen> We used to put up the chat and vote log.
<Betsy> Does highly marketable fine art count as commercial art?
<JL> Marketable is the key concept.
<Broomstic> I never thought there was a hard fast line between the forms of art
<Saracen> I would say Deborah for the wonderful PPT set up
<JL> Oh, yes!  Thank you Saracen.
<JL> Nominate her!
<JL> That is definitely precisely the kind of thing the Arensti would be for.
<MargareTZ> quick
<JL> oy, lost patric
<Betsy> So Beethoven, who has sold a *lot* of recordings over the years, would qualify?
<MargareTZ> wb patric
<Saracen> Welcome back
<N`omi> wb Patric!
<Broomstic> Hey, the Sistine chapel was done on commission
<Karen> Jacqueline, if you can op me in the logged discussion, I can op others.... if we lose Patric again.
* Patric mutters uncontrollably...
<JL> Beethoven was a commercial artist - they all were.  Anyone who has to please a patron to eat is a commercial artist.
<Kaas> heh heh oh boy
<Betsy> That's my point, Jacqueline
<Betsy> It was *very* marketable at the time, and also great music
<Broomstic> Most fine artists take commission work at some point in their careers
<JL> OK, someone move to close the nominations?
<JL> thanks
<Saracen> There's an arguement not to be a fine artist *grin*
<Broomstic> I tried the artist life.  I got tired of living on a Sime diet
<JL> give me a bunch of ayes up there quick
<Betsy> Yes, one might as well be a commercial artist from the beginning, eat like a Russian Gen and have fun
<N`omi> sorry that I keep jumping in too soon
<Saracen> Which is why I'm an engineer, not an antropologist or a writer ... I really like to eat
<Lisa> Heat wave here. It's 21 degrees right now
<Broomstic> I tried the commerical artist thing, too - all that happened was larger portions
<Broomstic> of rice and cabbage
<Saracen> Indeed
<Broomstic> (well, it keeps you regular, if nothing else...)
<JL> more ayes required, please
<Betsy> I know how that works, as a physician in training, I eat a *lot* of rice
<Kaas> The difficulty with being a commercial artist from the beginning is then you have to deal with the sort of customers who can only afford a beginner.
<N`omi> thanks Karen
<Betsy> I hadn't thought of that, Kaas
<N`omi> growing rice damages the ecosystem
<ChandraMH> I said I didn't feel qualified to vote and I'm not rescinding that.  <G>
<Broomstic> Right - I once had a lady not pay me.
<Betsy> Growing anything commercially damages the ecosystem.
<Saracen> Whereas writers now can hide all their practice pieces on a CD-ROM ... I love technology
<Broomstic> So one day I snuck into her office and sat on her desk until she cut me a check
<JL> OK, what's the next award?
<Saracen> Good for you
<N`omi> true true
<Betsy> That's persistence, Broomstick!
<JL> anyone paying attention here?
<Saracen> Yes
<Betsy> Yes
* Saracen has no idea what the next award is
<Broomstic> It took 2 hours and 40 minutes for her to figure out I wasn't kidding - I really
<JL> What's the next award.
<jean> What's next?
<N`omi> good for you!
<Broomstic> was going to stay there until she gave it up
<CarolC> I am but am waiting to see what the next award is and not sure if I am qualified to vote myself.
* ChandraMH is too new to even know what the awards ARE
<Betsy> I know someone who needed an extension on a major paper and did something similar
<Broomstic> I've very stubborn :D
* Patric is old and creaky and he still don't know what the awards are!
<CarolC> Especially as I mostly only work with a few people.  Karen, Patric, Jean, JL & Darlene
<N`omi> I did that to *get* a job, once! and yes, I got the job!
<Saracen> Do we have anyone up for the Risa Teague recycling award?
<Betsy> No, no Teagues yet
<CarolC> What's the recycling award?
<Patric> Not that I know of...
<Broomstic> I won't vote, I'm too new here, but I am observing
<JL> Oh, yes, the Teague
<jean> Recycling computers.
<Karen> Well, there is the Golden YoYo (which was AZ's) and the Silver Yo-Yo from CZ, and the Computer Recycling award, the Tigue.
<Saracen> I'm a flyer out in left field ... so I pretty much keep my mouth shut except when I'm in a mood to 'kick the dog', like before Christmas
<MargareTZ> someone who donates hardware or, I guess software
<JL> Oh, forgot the Yo-Yo's.
<jean> Or other equipment, but it's only been computers so far.
<Broomstic> Donates to who/what?
<JL> I suspect the people working Reviews deserve Yo-Yo's
<ChandraMH> Tell you what, next year you can nominate me for recycling old web pages into new ones (once I get the top page done and can start on the other stuff)  <G>
<Betsy> What other equipment do we need in the 21st C, anyway?
<JL> They do an awful lot of back-and-forth-and-around-in-circles to get those reviews up and posted.
<CarolC> Exactly Chandra that's what I thought for the romance
<Betsy> Look out, Chandra, or we will!
<ChandraMH> LOL
<Kaas> Well I founded the award and it was meant for loaning computers to S~G fans who did not have one so that they could join the online fandom.
<JL> Possibly Patric for inventing the posting form for the reviews section -- practically at a moment's notice.
<jean> Someone who gets a new computer donates his/her old one to someone on the list who has worse equipment
<Kaas> However it would probably be more like Jean's definition now that the fandom has been online for a while.
<JL> So has anyone passed along a computer this year?
* Saracen looks around at antique computers still in use
<CarolC> So who has been doing it and how much.  then we can vote with that information.
<Broomstic> I'm not giving up my beloved 286!
<Broomstic> (Although obviously I'm not using the 286 for this...)
<jean> I don't think there were any this year.
* Saracen dances with glee that someone has an older computer in use than she does
<Kaas> Not that you guys would consider legitimate.
<Patric> I thin white owl was the last to do the computer swap...
<N`omi> LOL Ann!
<CarolC> I agree with the Patric being nominated.  Alot of the reviews sections are utilizing the reviews form.
<Karen> I don't think there was any donated this year.
<jean> My Thinkpad turned into a doorstop, so I couldn't donate it when I got the Sony.
<Saracen> Do you still have it!
<jean> OK--are we on Yo-Yos now?
* Saracen is looking for a dead notebook to cannabalize
<JL> Yeah, Karen was that this year you got the new computer -- and that deserves a yo-yo at least for back-n-forth to get it running.
<ChandraMH> There may be someone who knows how to turn doorstops back into computers...
<Seanara> Crystal Owl, not White Owl.
<N`omi> I'll take it! maybe it can be repaired?
<Karen> All my computers got recycled a long time ago.  The little modem has still been making the trip.
<Betsy> I thought we were still on Teagues
* N`omi would almost sell her soul for a laptop
<Patric> Sorry Seanara.  I warned early on I was braindead.. :)
<Kaas> whisper saracen I have been trying to donate a laptop to you for months, what is the problem?
<JL> Teagues Award is for recycling isn't it?
* Seanara grins at Patric. NP.
<Karen> No, last year it was Crystal Owl that came and went..... this year, Eric has helped keep it running most of the time.
<Betsy> Recycling computer stuff, in particular
<Saracen> Don't want to do someone out of something which might actually be useful ... would rather take a deader
<jean> Apparently there was no recycling in 2000.
<Broomstic> Right, we were all stocking up resources for the Y2K thing...
<Patric> None that I am aware of, Jean..
<JL> alright already -- any NOMINATIONS for Teague, put them in #sgchat please. 
<JL> If none, we move on to the Yo-Yo's.
<JL> We have two -- Gold and Silver.
<Patric> There are none.  lets move on..
<jean> OK, then, let's move on.
<Broomstic> Yo yo?
<JL> But one isn't worth more than the other -- they were for two different 'zines.
<JL> They are worth the same and have the same qualifications.
<jean> When something goes way around several barns to get where it belongs.
<Saracen> Yo-yo does not equal number of times story gets sent back and forth before being printed
<JL> Basically you win an award for surviving a helluva ordeal of going round in circles trying to get something done and not giving up and getting it done even though it made you crazy nevermind dizzy.
<jean> When it is crazy the manipulations something goes through to get done.
<Betsy> It doesn't? <g>
<Karen> Nope....yo-yo's don't go for story circulation and re-writes.
<Kaas> It is a pity that Dyon's donation of a machine for your backup list archives was ignored.
<N`omi> like dealing with the Buffy experimnet
<Kaas> Considering the archives were created at JL's request.
<Kaas> I guess I should take those down hey?
<jean> Who is Dyon?
<Kaas> D. Yon Klempner, one of your fans.
<MargareTZ> why didn't you nominate then, Kaas?
<jean> Why have I not heard of this person or this machine?
<Patric> Kaas...  Do you have a chip on your shoulder, or did I miss something?
<Kaas> Yes, you missed Mary Lou nominating Dyon and it being ignored.
<Patric> Did you second it for her?
<Betsy> I didn't know Dyon had donated a machine for archives.  And I missed it too
<Karen> I didn't see that nomination, Kaas.
<JL> Nominate for the Silver Yo-Yo first -- in #sgchat please.  If nobody, then move to pass the Silver Yo-Yo over this year.
<jean> I don't see Mary Lou's nomination.
<MargareTZ> I don't see it in sgchat?
<Broomstic> That sounds like it should get an award - for the archive machine
<Kaas> Yes, it was near the beginning
<jean> For the Digen Award?
<Karen> Sounds like it should, but did we get it into the logged discussion...we can always give another award to them.
<Betsy> It must have been before I joined sgchat
<MargareTZ> then when Yoyos are over we can reopen Tigue?
<Kaas> It was around that time. Mary Lou did not know you were only accepting nominations for the Digen award at the time.
<jean> I found it--it was for the Tigue Award at the wrong time.
<Patric> Close it, Kaas.
<Broomstic> Why wouldn't we be able to re-open Teague?
<jean> Mary Lou, where are you?
<Broomstic> Don't we control this?
<Karen> Since it is a technical award...then it would fit for Tigue.
<Saracen> Indeed
<Betsy> Oh, now I found it.  I think we skipped it because we were working on Digens
<jean> Why didn't you nominate when we got to Tigues--or Kaas, why didn't you, for that matter?
<JL> gimme ayes please
<Kaas> I didn't realize I got a vote.
<JL> Sure you can vote Kaas
<Karen> You're here, you can vote as far as I know.
<Saracen> Better hurry Kaas
<JL> Are there any nays?
<jean> Everyone here can nominate and vote.
<dejla> This is Freedom Hall -- you can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastard...
<Broomstic> Alright, I said I wasn't going to vote -but it was the archives that got me here
<JL> got that right Deb
<Patric> Kaas..  Everything here is pretty much open.  If you have a beef, speak up.  No need for sarcasm or jibes.  Just pipe up!
<JL> Archives definitely deserve something!!!!
<Kaas> Patric, please get off my back.
<Patric> No nays.  Archives are important.
<N`omi> so, what Award would they come under?
<jean> We've just awarded D. Yon Klemper the Tigue for the archives.
<Patric> Sorry Kaas. 
<JL> The archives can win TWO awards you know.
<Saracen> OK Jean, I'm horrible confused ... what is the canonical spelling of Teague? (Tigue, Tegue ... argh!)
<jean> Tigue
<Saracen> Thanks
<JL> I almost always spell it wrong, so take an average of mine and do it another way.
<Saracen> LOL JL
<JL> OK, what's the next award -- Silver Yo-Yo?
<ECJB> Can I have a Slinky?
<JL> total silence?
<MargareTZ> would the Buffy project fall under that?
<jean> Has anything gone through a wild rigamarole to get done?
<Saracen> I've been called a yoyo
<Karen> Golden yo-yo  (which was AZ's) and Silver (CZ's)
<jean> No, the Buffy Project was just a bad idea.
<Betsy> Archives are -- what?
<JL> Not sure what Buffy project falls under -- but I think it deserves a recognition.  Will get one too.
<Karen> Records of the list mail we get
<Patric> List archives...  simegen-l for example..
<JL> We have more stuff after the awards you know.
<jean> NO!
<Broomstic> Buffy project?
<jean> Unless you want to trash me for thinking of it.
<jean> It was nothing but a bad idea that failed.
<Karen> Jean, even ideas that don't work, are worth the attempt.
<Broomstic> Oh, so bad no one wants to talk about it, ay?
* dejla admits she has no idea what the Buffy project was, is, or should be...
<MargareTZ> but wasn't there a lot of work put into it?
<jean> It was a contest that drew no entries.
<Betsy> What did I miss when I lost my connection?
<Karen> If I remember right, it was a contest.
<N`omi> drew two entries
<Patric> Oh please Deb, don't go there..  :)  Yes, it was a contest...  A parody of the TV show...
<Saracen> Of course the poetry contest got quite a few entries and I have no idea what ever happened to the submissions or the awards
<dejla> Well, if there are no stupid questions, then doesn't it also follow that there are no bad ideas, merely ones that don't work out the first time?
<jean> Yes--and the winner thought so little of it that she would not answer us and collect her prize.
<Betsy> Oh, the Buffy thing?
<Patric> Write your own, as it were..
<Saracen> Good grief, Jean
<jean> But I see no reason to advertise our failures.
<Broomstic> Apollo 13 was a failfure, but worth hearing about
<Saracen> I was just wondering what had happened to the copyright on the poems that had been submitted
<MargareTZ> so you rather insult the worker, Jean?
<jean> And certainly no reason to REWARD failure.  That is what's wrong with our school system.
<Broomstic> Then again, this project might not be in that category
<Betsy> I'm not sure it was a failure
<Karen> but we learn from failure, to try and not repeat it.
<JL> OK, but let's get on -- we all have other things to do.  Any Nominations for further awards or does someone want to move to close the Awards Nominations?
<jean> The poetry contest rules are still up--go look at the copyright info.
* N`omi objects
<Broomstic> Sometimes, how you handle mistake/failfure is more important than having an easily successful idea
<MargareTZ> are you ruling against any nominations for Buffy, JL?
<Betsy> Absolutely right, Broomstick!
<JL> No, I'm not -- I'm just saying if someone wants to nominate, we get to vote and the Nays will get their official say.
<Betsy> Look at Rimon/Klyd/Digen, who keeps making mistakes and getting back up and trying again
<JL> We can count and see -- not everything has to be perfectly unanimous.
* Patric points out that Challenger is known, but hasn't won any awards for meritorious service, or Most Spectacular Explosion in an Atmosphere...
<N`omi> why does the volunteer who went through soo much work.. get blamed for the *bad idea*?
<jean> The only award the Buffy contest is eligible for is the Worst Idea of the Year award.  I will accept that--but do we want to embarrass other people with it in the future?
<N`omi> thanks you Margaret! <hugs>
<Betsy> The very fact that the Buffy contest was an immense amount of work and chaos and then didn't generate a lot of entries actually fits a yo-yo award well
<JL> second?
<ChandraMH> Maybe not a Worst Idea - maybe a Least Commercially Viable idea?
<MargareTZ> Jean, I am not nominating the contest, just the person who worked on it!
<Broomstic> Maybe a "It sounded good at the time" award?
<ChandraMH> Lots of good ideas are just not commercially viable but that doesn't make them BAD.
<JL> It wasn't N'omi's idea -- it was Jean and me cooked it up at a WorldCon over breakfast one morning.
<jean> It was MY bad idea, not yours, N'omi.
<N`omi> no, I was just the worker!
<Betsy> And N'omi worked hard and was made very dizzy...
<N`omi> thanks you, Ann
<Patric> I don't think that's the goal, N'omi..  You get the recognition for the work, its the idea itself that didnt work..
<MargareTZ> and it is the WORK that I think qualifies for a yoyo
<Patric> Not shooting the messenger at all.. ;)
<Saracen> It was for the work, not the idea
<Betsy> After all, yo-yos are about chaos and dizziness and overwork
<Karen> Makes sense to me.
<Broomstic> Recognition for trying to make something work
<jean> You did the publicity that brought us the only entries.  If it had been a good idea, your work would have paid off.
<JL> OK, nay's -- now's your chance to go on record.
<JL> I agree with Jean -- N'omi did a terrific job.
<Patric> Not me.  I thought we were awarding the concept...
<JL> any more votres.
<JL> The concept was Jean's mostly -- with brainstorming with me.
<Patric> I figured it out, finally.  Volunteer definitely gets the recognition..
<MargareTZ> Failure is something we all have to face at one time or another
<JL> any more ayes?  I haven't counted but I don't think we have a majority there yet?
<Seanara> Not familiar with the contest so I didn't vote, but I agree that work and effort deserves the recognition.
<Broomstic> abstention - don't count me
<MargareTZ> 6 ayes so far
<Betsy> And 2 abstentions
<N`omi> I must abstain, as it is me
<JL> How many people are we counting duplicates?
<JL> Do I see any nays at all?  If not, so awarded.
<Betsy> I think 17 are logged into #sgschat
<jean> I want to vote for N'omi's work, but not for the concept.
<Saracen> That is what we are voting for (were, that is)
<JL> That's why I specified in the motion.
<JL> OK, any more awards -- anyone else who deserves recognition in the permanent archives?
* Patric congratulates N'omi...
<N`omi> thanks you.. you have no idea how much I needed this! <tearfully>
*  JL appreciates N'omi most incredibly much.
<N`omi> thank you very much JL!
<JL> any other awards?
<Saracen> Congratulations N'omi
<JL> If not will someone move to close the awards?
<jean> I appreciate your work, N'omi--only wish it had had a better result.
<N`omi> me too, Jean.. me too!!
<Karen> Perhaps N'omi's next project will be more popular.
<JL> gimme some more and we get to the business then
<Broomstic> If you don't risk failure you don't gain success
<N`omi> yes!
<Betsy> I'm sure it will
<JL> That's the right attitude Broomstic! 
<Saracen> Indeed, Broomstic *grin*
<N`omi> we just gotta raise the age level of the expected participents!
<jean> We need to do another poetry contest--that one was a success.
<JL> Jean you're on stage and have the gavel.
<Betsy> Or maybe we should run a contest *aimed* at younger participants?
<Broomstic> It's harder to do good poetry than good prose
<JL> We need a volunteer to run contests. 
<Betsy> Yes, most poetry ends up being doggerel
<JL> Let Jean think and organize -- we want to get through this quickly.
<Broomstic> Everyone here heard of Sturgeon's Law?
<N`omi> noo.. what I really learned from that project is what younger ones like to *chat* about, (in over 900 lists..), is not what they will enter a contest to *write* about!
<Betsy> Yes
<JL> And yes, if it's a poetry contest we need someone who knows a little about the subject.  Our judge was a professional (professor too) - for kids we need a school-teacher type.
<JL> Jean's getting started -- watch the #sgchat screen.
<Betsy> Well, I guess we didn't aim at what they will *write* about then
<JL> Yes, that's correct Betsy.  We were off a little in the aim. 
<JL> The fans of the TV show are at the giggle stage of the teens mostly -- not the fanfic stage.
<Broomstic> Recalibrate and fire again
<Betsy> But for a while there was a significant amount of  "Dawson's Creek" fanfic, some of it rather good
<JL> I was on AOL the other day and the boards on the TV shows were really really DEAD.
<Betsy> So maybe we picked the wrong show?  Or maybe we were just a little late?
<JL> all they could think of was how 'cute' one or another actor was. 
<Broomstic> or a little early
<JL> Yes, wrong show -- wrong target -- wrong type of exercise.
<dejla> Well, there is are several sites out there with Buffy fic, but I'm not sure how the age range is on that.
<N`omi> yes! that is basically the theme! adolesant hormones
<JL> It's THE most popular show by so many measures.
<Betsy> Well, when I was reading DC fanfic, some of it *wasn't* MarySue and some of it was well written.
<N`omi> yes, I know.. I did searches through webrings, regular searches, listsm, newsgroups, irc chats, etc., etc., etc.
<JL> maybe what we need is someone to search around the web and find out where the really good WRITING is being done.
<JL> Then concoct a contest aimed at that group.
<N`omi> serious project that would be
<Betsy> If we want to tackle a TV show popular with adolescents, we need to borrow some bright female adolescent fen of that show who are internet savvy
<MargareTZ> start with WVU
<Betsy> That's how I ran across the DC fanfic.
<N`omi> hmm, thats an idea, Margaret!
<Broomstic> WVU?
<JL> Yes, and my kids are both over 30 and don't have kids yet -- so I'm all out of teenagers which could be why the contest bombed.  Neither Jean nor I hang out with the age-group we're targeting.
<Betsy> My best friend's stepdaughter is the right age & was DC-crazy for a while.  Now she's gone off TV
<Broomstic> By that reasoning RK Rowling shouldn't be writing Harry Potter
<N`omi> I got losts of promises to write.. but no outcome..even with promptings
<CarolC> I'm no help because I don't watch much tv, the 13 year 0.old is studying every night due to an F.  Can't help with many ideas in that section
<Broomstic> Sometimes you just don't quite hit what you aim at.
<JL> What's WVU mean?  (oy, ignorant)
<N`omi> Writers' Village University
<Broomstic> yes!
<MargareTZ> Writers' Village University
<Kaas> If it was me I'd do something I'd heard people asking for.
<Broomstic> remember - no dumb questions!
<MargareTZ> many writers all stages
<Betsy> No, Broomstick, writing for them isn't the same as getting them to write.
<Betsy> Oh, I thought WVU = West Virginia U
<JL> Oh, yes, -- now I recognize the acronym.
<Broomstic> But you have to be keyed into the adoclensent/kid perspective to write stuff they will read
<Broomstic> But you don't require having kids to relate to them
<dejla> Harry Potter is simply a British boarding school story with wizards mixed in. It's a very well-done example of a wish-fulfillment fantasy, and since it's got a male protag, the boys will read it and the girls will as well [boys don't tend to read female protag books]
<N`omi> I am a member pof WVU
<Betsy> Yes, but keyed into their perspective isn't the same as knowing what they already are writing about
<JL> Parody is not really a kids thing -- it's a high-discipline difficult challenge.  Kids can do it only when INSPIRED -- not by cold, calculated deliberate effort.  Which is what I asked of them.
<JL> Betsy's right -- find what they are already doing and make a contest out of that.
<N`omi> deciding whon will/should be having sex with whom and why
<Betsy> Someone under 18 was writing DC parodies for a while
<dejla> There is a web site... I can't think of the name of it, though -- which specializes in sarcastic comments re: various teen-aimed shows. They're particularly nasty on Seventh Heaven, and they're not a lot friendlier to Buffy or DC.
<JL> Yes, some young people are VERY talented!!!  Those are ones I'm very interested in getting into the school.
<Betsy> also, maybe we should aim at college kids  instead of HS age
<Broomstic> >sigh<   even when a teenager I never read about teenage stuff - already moved on to adult subjects
<JL> Good parody has no overtones of sarcasm or put-downs.  Read the examples I chose. 
<N`omi> yes, taht is why I said aim to an older age group!
<JL> Jean's putting up the stock awards.
<MargareTZ> how about older people?
<Betsy> And that's why I am thinking college kids, as they are much better at parody
<Karen> I don't think last year's shares were ever mailed out.....
<Betsy> *We* loved parodying things when I was in college
<JL> Yes, Betsy - college age comes into their own with the PARODY concept.
<Broomstic> I think bringing high school kids into writing is a great thing... the trouble is getting them to write.  It takes discipline,
<JL> but our contests have to be parody only when dealing with a TV show.
<JL> Or other copyrighted thing.
<Broomstic> and by definition, kids are lacking in the discipline of an adult (on average)
<N`omi> perhaps instaed of parady we shoul ask then to write an episode
<Saracen> You can't because of the issue with copyright
<MargareTZ> or build a world skeleton
<Broomstic> or just a scene
<N`omi> why do we *have* to do parady?
<JL> See my comment -- we have to be careful of copyright.
<N`omi> ahh, I see
<dejla> not necessarily... look at the effort kids will put into the ballet, sports, music... you just have to find the ones who write because it gives them the same thrill as the physical stuff.
<Betsy> Well, for something that requires discipline, for a while I was critiquing DC fanfic, and kids would re-write and re-write and re-send and resend
<Saracen> parody is exempt from copyright statues
<N`omi> thanks Ann
<Saracen> DC = ?
<JL> Jean will explain the ins and outs of why Parody for TV shows or existing properties in detail.  We discussed this with our legal staff extensively before deciding and the wording on the web page introducing the paraody and the CREDIT at the bottom took weeks for Legal to OK.
<Betsy> "Dawson's Creek"
<Saracen> Ah, I see.
<CarolC> Why not give a concept and have people write an episode.  Then next contest would the another episode and so on until it is done.  Or chapters?
<N`omi> how about "Dark Angel"?
<JL> College kids do watch CHARMED as do over-30's.
<Broomstic> Kids putting effort in an activity and succeeding have to get discipline from somewhere - usually a coach or parent
<Broomstic> A very few acquire it very early - but it's rare
<Saracen> Or a parody of the HS/College newsletter ... far easier and more likely to get hits
<Betsy> I dunno about that, as the kids I was corresponding with wrote DC fanfic for their own enjoyment and that of their peers.  The big payoff was when I said the characters sounded just like on TV and when their friends  loved it.
<N`omi> wow, stock even? wow, thank you!
<Broomstic> Then
<Karen> Yeah, right ---- * JL no Litman on the corp books anywhere that I know of. ~~innocent~~
<JL> see?  didn't need a yo-yo
<Saracen> Congratulations Jean
<Patric> Rememebr folks..  Chitchat and such in here..  That's the official log in #sgchat.
<dejla> So it's the same thing with writing. It takes coaching -- and that's a massive time sink. I'm not saying it's not worth it, but you're competing with all the other opportunities out there.
<Saracen> Oops, Patric
<Broomstic> A good talent is worth coaching
<Saracen> Indeed, Broomstic
<Patric> N'omi..  Its for the Buffy work, I believe.  Its a site you put effort into...  JL or Jean can correct me..
<Broomstic> It's fun to slam down a first draft... refining it takes work
<JL> Yes, Broomstic
<Broomstic> You got to get 'em past the refining so they can enjoy the pay off of a finished work
<Betsy> True enough, and I found it more and more difficult to offer constructive suggestions as the stuff got better
* Patric yeeps! What happened?
<N`omi> yes, it is the only thimg I have done.. I just wanted an award.. never expected stock!
<JL> And yes, the share for N'omi is for all that WORK publicizing the contest site.
<Saracen> You got four shares of stock, Patric
<Betsy> But their payoff was in the compliments they got when they posted the 'final' version to a DC list or DC website
<N`omi> yes, applauding Patric!
<Broomstic> Reward isn't always money
<JL> I think that concludes the business meeting.  Jean you want to call for adjournement so we can PARTY DOWN!!!
<N`omi> LOL
<Patric> "Watch friends and neighbors an overly butch, often cranky Patric runs blushing for the nearest rock to hide behind it... :)
<Betsy> congrats to all who got stock!
<JL> you stockholders are now owners of Sime~Gen.
<JL> You do realize that S~G Inc is now the owner of record of all the copyrights for all the novels -- so you own a stake in the future of the novels.
<Seanara> And here's the hope and wish that that stock will be worth a great deal in the not too distant future. ~~warmth~~
* ChandraMH is very quiet due to doing downloads in the background :)
<JL> If we get that movie and if it makes piles of money -- you guys will get some.  (but only if very large mountains of money)
<Patric> Thank you, ladies...  Quite a surprise...
<Broomstic> May the assets of the corporation (i.e. stories) be fruitiful and mutliply
<N`omi> wow!!
<jean> We all certainly hope so.
<Karen> I never received any "paper" stock from last year.  I assume this year it will be mailed?
<Saracen> Beware of small and not so small battle servants hiding over rock, Patric
<JL> gimme the last of your ayes!
* Patric chuckles at Ann...
* N`omi siles, imaging 40 years from now
<Karen> We've all got to work to see that Sime~Gen Inc. continues to prosper.
<jean> We have had to forego paper certificates, which is perfectly legal.
<JL> come on everyone can vote in this one.
<Karen> Works for me then, Jean.
<Betsy> Jean, why no paper certificates?  I know it's legal, I'm just nosy
<jean> All stockholders will receive a letter listing how much stock they own.
<Broomstic> hey, what did I just vote for?
<Karen> That would work, too.
<Betsy> Adjourning the business meeting
<Saracen> To adjourn the formal meeting
<Karen> Just voted to close the meeting, Broomstick.
<JL> adjourning the business meeting so we can get on with what's important here!
<Patric> Probably because Patric hasn't designed any, and he keeps moaning about boilerplate designs..  ;)
<Broomstic> Can I vote for that again?
<N`omi> to: I call for adjournment of the business portion of this meeting.
<MargareTZ> starting the party part
<JL> Well, lack of Patric on the stock certificates was only part of the problem.
<Broomstic> I lived in Chicago 15 years, I vote often
<jean> Jacqueline spent an entire year trying to design a printable certificate, and finally we decided that when it still wouldn't work after all that time it was not an efficient use of her time to continue.
<Saracen> LOL Broomstic!
<Betsy> Oh, that makes sense, Jean
<Betsy> Chicago, where the folks in the anatomy lab still vote!
* Patric laughs. I was actually clowning around.. :)
<MargareTZ> rather have her spend the time writing
<jean> If we ever get big or important enough, we can get it professionally done, though most companies no longer issue certificates anyway.
<N`omi> yes, writing!
<Patric> Writing!
<Saracen> Not to be confused with Florida where people who should be in the morgue still vote
* N`omi snickers
<dejla> Or Texas, where people who are in the morgue DO vote.
<jean> I'm writing--up to p. 123 on a new S~G novel.
<Broomstic> Oddly enough, both Chicago and Florida use the same ballot system...
* Patric laughs. good one Ann...
* Saracen has annoying kitten wandering about on desk
<Betsy> Well, many companies *will* issue you certificates if you own shares and *pester* them enough about it, but it's not common if you don't poke at them
<Saracen> Good-oh, Jean
<N`omi> mazel tov, Jean!
<MaryLou> What's the novel about, Jean?
<Broomstic> More pages!  More pages!
<Betsy> Well, at least in FL they are semi-ambulatory, as opposed to fully embalmed.
<jean> No use poking at us, because the certificates don't exist.
<Patric> Yes, I kow Jean..  Did you all catch that?  Jean is working on a new S~G novel?
* Saracen wants to punt kitten
<jean> It's a S~G romance called TO KISS OR TO KILL.
<Betsy> <drool, drool>
* Patric growls.. No kitten punting..
<N`omi> yummy!
<MargareTZ> don't punt, spit, works wonders
<Betsy> Didn't Cheryl also have a S~G romance going?
<dejla> Sounds good -- for the kitten, try a water pistol.
<Broomstic> How much you want to be TKOTK will end up in the vampire section at a number of bookstores?
<Karen> Hey, Karen still has one cat which needs a home.
<Patric> How is it going, Jean, aside from available time?
<MargareTZ> kitten thinks it's mama
<Broomstic> Just based on title
* N`omi distarcts kitty with salmon treats.. after making sure Hershy and Imp have their share
<Saracen> Ah, but she hasn't any brains to be damanged ... *sigh*
* dejla says sadly has been trying to find friends in need of cats, but no luck so far.
* Saracen notices kitten has finally wandered off ... good!
* N`omi grins
<jean> Takes place in Gulf right after Unity.  Gen female saved from the Final Auction; Sime male who wants to disjunct.
<Broomstic> Oh, gosh, that's a train wreck waiting to happen...
<jean> It's going well right now because I have some time off.  I will keep going till school hits me over the head again next week.
<Patric> Coolness...  whats the conflict?
* MaryLou hands Jean a helmet.
<jean> Ha. Ha. Ha.
<Betsy> TKOTK would fit in fairly well with the vampire romances
* Patric just laughs and laughs, having expended the sum total of his wit for the day...
<CarolC> Well all I want to announce that I may be a grandma of anywhere from 9-65 snakes if Diamond has gotten herself pregnant.  I was under the impression form all information it was hard to get boas to mate.  Recently on two occasions now the snakes have been doing the dirty with no help from me.  Meaning I have not altered humidity or anything.
<jean> She had accepted that she would die--now she has to learn how to live, and to save him.
<Broomstic> I get a kick out of looking for certain things that don't fit into pigeon holes and seeing where it ends up
<Patric> Ok, but is he worth saving?
<Saracen> Coolness Carol ... I like snakes
<jean> He has failed disjunction once--now his life depends on succeeding.
<JL> Oh, yes, and FOLKS - note this.  Carol's SNAKE PAGES are drawing humongous HITS.  People really are interested in those snakes.
<Betsy> Who hasn't any brains to be damaged?
<jean> Yes--he's a real nice guy, for a junct.
<CarolC> I am going to go as I have to make dinner. I  just had to make that announcement as I am amazed considering the information and breeders have told me it can be hard to get them to mate.
<Saracen> the perpetual (six year old or so) kitten
<Saracen> See ya, Carol
<dejla> Congrats, then, Carol.
<JL> Yes, so get more pix up there for the folks who're interested.
<Broomstic> Animals breeding willingly is a sign they're in a good environment and unstressed - what most of us call happy.
<Karen> You're ending up with little snakes, Carol?  Interesting.
<Betsy> Congrats, Carol!  And yes there's a lot of interest in reptiles
<Broomstic> Or at least content.
<JL> And Carol, thank you for coming and sitting through all the OTHER stuff till we got to you.
* Patric laughs.. "For a junct", she says...
<Saracen> Anyone want some platties?
<Betsy> Whose perpetual kitten?  Karen's?
<N`omi> take care Carol!
<Betsy> Saracen, platties are too easy to breed!
<dejla> Good luck on the novel, Jean... sounds like a good conflict!
<Saracen> Our households ... her name is Kali ... it fits
<JL> Carol rescued a snake about the time Patric almost rescued that kitten.
<Betsy> Yes, it does.
<Saracen> So we've found out
<Karen> I still have an 11 year old perpetual kitten here.
<CarolC> I guess so they aren't officially going to be launched until next weekend where I will be launching the documentory on Baby's recovery.  Baby is a Ball python someone let a rat get to.  Most of her skin on her back end was eaten off.  I took her home and after around 10 weeks she is almost totally healed.
<Betsy> Destructo-kitten!
<Broomstic> I'm be interested in snakes if I didn't already have birds
<Patric> Eeew..  Don't go there, JL!
<Karen> But a 2 year old that needs a home......
<ChandraMH> I have an eight month old foster kitten in need of a SPECIAL home.
<N`omi> kewl!
<Betsy> Why SPECIAL?
<N`omi> I adore snakes, but have dogs
<Betsy> And congrats on helping Baby recover.  Snakes are tough, but once they have skin problems...
<jean> I have dogs banging on the door right now--don't know why as it's an hour and a half till their suppertime.
<ChandraMH> She was feral, not caught until she was 3 months old, and very shy.  Needs a quiet home with no demands where she can adapt at her own pace.  She's very loving once she feels secure.
<Broomstic> what's a "Battle servant"?
<Betsy> N'omi, you can have a corn snake -- they are too little at full size to hurt a dog, even a micro teacup poodle
<CarolC> So I have cats and 3 snakes.  You can get the cats used to the snakes.
<CarolC> Dogs too.
<ChandraMH> But right now she's living in the dog's crate because my house is such a zoo.
<Saracen> Critter I created for my own universe
<MaryLou> Jean, what is this Final Auction?  The last auction of Choice Gens in Gulf Territory?  And is this before or after Unity?
<Saracen> Hello Margaret!
<Patric> One of the more uninhibited members of the universe Ann writes from..
<jean> It's after Unity--the very last Choice Auction.  The next day it is is illegal to sell or kill Gens, although the Gens are not set free.
<N`omi> really?? hmm.. I do have this 40 gall acrylic aquarium that stils unised....
<MargaretI> bad bounce, thanks AnnMarie
<Broomstic> Illeagl to kill Gens?  Then what do the juncts do?
<Betsy> That would be excellent for a corn snake habitat
<Betsy> The juncts die.
<Saracen> LOL, Patric ... just because they have the sexual morals of teenagers who can't get pregnant and can't get diseases from it ...
* Patric mutters and has to idle.. BRB...
<jean> They become the wards of those who owned them the day before--and you have Genfarmers and Penkeepers trying to figure out how to make a living from them other than by selling their selyn.
<Patric> Yeah well...  The are also fun!  BRB
<Broomstic> Oh, right - the juncts die.  Like my mom is going to give up cigarettes. 
<jean> Well, at first there are no plans for Secret Pens, but that does come into the novel later.
<JL> Broomstic's got the right idea -- it's an ADDICTION.
<MaryLou> So why did this guy buy himself a Gen that he isn't going to be able to kill?
<Kaas> Maybe the price goes way down
<Kaas> ;-)
<jean> His father bought her to try to force his son to kill her.
<Betsy> Well, if you lock up the juncts that are too old to disjunct and let them only have channels' transfer, they *will* die.
<jean> It's complicated.
<CarolC> Well all have a good night and I will send an official announcment as to when the first of the snake pages are launched.  I have two of them coming up.  One of Baby and the other of Diamond and Bob and maybe in 4-8 months of the babys if they have them.  Getting pregnant is only one issue.  The pregnancy and birth is a whole other.  Have a great day all.
<jean> You can't lock up an entire territory.
<JL> bye Carol
<Broomstic> If it wasn't complicated it would be a short story and not a novel
<dejla> You'd run out of prison cells, for sure.
<jean> The sub-plot deals with what some of the juncts do about the situation.
<MaryLou> That sounds nasty.
<Broomstic> Hey, just because something is illegal doesn't put an end to it.
<dejla> Think Prohibition.
<jean> And the Tecton eventually having to go along with it or have a revolution on their tentacles.
<N`omi> instead of cells, could you use ankle locks?
<Broomstic> Prohibition?  How about the modern so-called "war on drugs"?
<Betsy> Yes, and it's going to be tough to prevent juncts from continuing to kill.  But remember, a lot of semi-juncts don't *want* to kill, so don't have to be locked up all the time
<Broomstic> Ankle locks aren't going to stop a Sime in hunting mode
<dejla> That too, of course. But Prohibition is the poster child for a good idea gone really really bad...
<N`omi> ah, sorry, I was thinkingtecho-age
<Betsy> Just when they are in crisis.  That would limit the number that need to be locked up
<Broomstic> semi-juncts must eventually kill or die (or get ahold of kerduvon...)
<jean> And the Tecton eventually having to go along with it or have a revolution on their tentacles.
<dejla> Or of course, the use of peyote as a religious rite... it's legal in some southwestern states IIRC
<jean> The Tecton is more sensible than the US government.
<MargaretI> are the Last Year Houses in it?
<jean> When they realize they can't stop the Secret Pens they take them over and regulate them.
<JL> Oh, there's a wonderful story in kerduvon in semi-junct times.  You see, MOST of the time the stuff makes an awful mess out of anyone it's tried on.
<Betsy> Yes, but the semi-juncts that don't *want* to kill will tell you when they are safe in mixed company and when they aren't
<JL> It's very very few people who can live through it and come out almost as good as new.
<Broomstic> if they know themselves
<jean> No--at this point in time you can't have Last Year houses because half the population would be in them.
<JL> Jean's right about that.
<JL> This time right at Unity is really, really DARK.
<Betsy> Yes.
<jean> There are solutions for a few, like my couple--but then they suffer Survivor's Guilt.
<Betsy> The overall mood goes from euphoria to profound depression in a matter of months
<JL> Psychologically, this is a time when society is just plain insane -- on BOTH sides of the border.
<jean> This setting is so great because it is so emotion-laden--like setting a love story against a war.
<JL> Think about it from the Gen side for a few moments.
<Broomstic> shudder
<Betsy> There may not be Last Year Houses, but
<MaryLou> That would be about how long it took the juncts to realize that they're all going to be dead within a year or two?
<JL> There are those who believe -- those who are suspicious -- those who are paranoid -- and those convinced it's all a lie, a trick.  And they are ALL CORRECT simulataneously.
<jean> The Gens have to be convinced that the killing has stopped.
<Betsy> There will be prisons for those who can't be trusted and have proven that
<Seanara> I would imagine there would be riots.
<Betsy> There would be riots
<JL> Also remember that for juncts -- being dead in a year or two doesn't rob them of much of their life-expectancy just of the joy of living and killing.
<Broomstic> How do you condemn lots of people to death - because that's what you do if you outlaw the kill
<jean> If anyone openly and deliberately kills, that person would be condemned not to prison but to attrition.
<jean> But secretly....
<Broomstic> Those who only have a year to live still value that year - spurious to say "will not lose much"
<ChandraMH> Attrition behind bars -- that's still prison until death.
<jean> And then there are always "accidents."
<jean> If witnesses say a Gen provoked a Sime, that Sime is pretty likely to be acquitted.
<ChandraMH> Jean, wouldn't there ALWAYS be accidents?  Real ones?  Until the end of time?
<Broomstic> Sounds like just after Unity is worse chaos, in some ways, that before
<jean> Yes, of course, but not at the same rate.
<JL> Chandra -- yes, there will always be accidental kills. 
<CptButton> I've assumed that the secret pens became last years houses eventually.
<jean> And as time passes fewer people will be sympathetic witnesses who WANT to zlin a provocative Gen.
<JL> But today we live with a car-accident rate that will appall anyone from the future where cars are run by computers and don't bump into each other.
<Betsy> I figured the same thing as Cpt.Button
<JL> Yes, Jean -- it's a cultural values shift very akin to the women's movement producing the change in whether it's polite to open a door for a woman.
<Broomstic> Fine - computers run the cars... what happens when the computer crashes?
<MargaretI> yes, nobody sane gets in a car intending to kill
<ChandraMH> The problem with running cars by computer is that people are too damn cocky and think they can do a better job.
<jean> Much more like how you conduct a rape investigation today as compared to 30 years ago.
<Karen> The car has problems when the computer crashes.... we had an '89 like that.
<Broomstic> At which point the human better be ready to take over
<jean> At any rate, my characters live in "interesting" times.  Oh--and Zhag and Tonyo are supporting characters.
<Kaas> What year is this story set in?
<jean> Year One after the First Unity Treaty.  Or would that be Year Zero?
<ChandraMH> I think they would call it year one, wouldn't they?
<jean> In fact, it opens a month before the Unity Treaty is proclaimed.
<Kaas> And Frevven's stories are considered to start in Year 13? Are they considered canonical?
<MaryLou> How long after the original Faith Day did it take to get the First Unity Treaty?
<jean> No one in the first two chapters has any idea of what is coming at them historically.
<CptButton> An important question,, remember all the arguments about when the third millenium started...
<jean> About six months, I think.
<JL> We haven't written that yet so we want to keep the time-interval vague between Unity and Faith Day.
<MaryLou> So where does your Gen protagonist come from, Jean?  A Genfarm?  Or was she captured from Gen Territory?
<JL> Notice Jean said "about" and "I'd say"
<ChandraMH> I need to go... Happy New Year, everyone.  :)
<jean> She's the daughter of Simes, who sold her to the Choice Auction when she established.
<Betsy> bye Chandra!
<MargaretI> can't be from a Genfarm unless child of Simes
<JL> If we need 9 months or a year to fit in a story we think of later, we want to keep that advantage.
<Patric> Take care, Chandra!
<JL> bye!
<jean> Her native language is Simelan, and she can read, write, and cipher--so she has some advantages over Pen Gens.
<jean> Eventually she becomes a costume designer for the entertainment establishments of Norlea, but not without a long, hard struggle.
<N`omi> now, I like that!
<Betsy> So when can we hope to read this?
<jean> That's the Zhag~Tonyo connection, you see.
<Betsy> <drool, drool>
<jean> You can read it after I finish writing it and find a publisher.
<Betsy> I know.  I am just hoping that it will be soon.
<Kaas> I have an email with Jean describing her first concepts for the first Zhag~Tonyo story. I should auction it off.
<Seanara> When will we see a book out with all the Zhag/Tonyo stories? ~~hopeful~~
* N`omi hands Jean a faster-writing keyboard
<jean> I have a list of the three most likely e-publishers for a sf romance.
<JL> Jean tends to destroy keyboards.
<MargaretI> Zhag-Tonyo would be a great ebook
<JL> I think she learned on a manual and never lightened her touch.
<MaryLou> Yes.
<jean> Right now I have set aside the 4th story that for some reason I could not make work last year.
<Betsy> By pounding on them or by causing people to drool on them?
<N`omi> really? why? too much pressure, dropping, or spilling stuff?
<JL> both I'd expect
<jean> When I go back and finish that one, I will have enough for a collection.
<N`omi> ahh, I  see! I have the same problem.. I cannot use the nice soft touch boards
<Broomstic> Last year my household got some keyboards real cheap.  We bought 12 at once
<Seanara> Can't see myself reading e-books. Paperbacks and hardbounds, that I can curl up on the couch with.
<N`omi> wow!
<Broomstic> They're a weird color combo, but it's nice to have a new one handy when the old breaks
<jean> I was too scatterbrained, and the story would not stay on one track.  Eventually I will go back to it.
<Betsy> Well, I will read ebooks if I want to read the story and that's how I can get it.  I can't say I like the concept, but I am getting used to it
<N`omi> thereare hard handheld things that you can dowload e-books into
<Karen> I'm not fond of e-books either.  Can't yet find them portable enough, that I can afford it.
<Broomstic> Problem with e-books is I have to sit in front of the ocmputer.  And most of my reading time is on the commuter train
* Seanara admits that her reading format tastes are from the Stone Age.
<jean> The neat thing about a romance is that formulaic plotline--it CAN'T go off somewhere unexpected.
<MargaretI> but not very good, N`omi
<Betsy> And some ebooks come in palmpilot format now
<N`omi> that can be afforded is the other problem, Karen.. I mean $200! yikes
* Patric points out B'Elanna Torres curled up on her couch reading a padd....
<MargaretI> need a design the shape and size of a book
<MaryLou> Speaking of going back to old series, I've got a fourth Den and Rital story outlined.
<Broomstic> A SMALL book size!
<jean> I assume TKOTK will have a POD version, if you are willing to pay for it.
<Broomstic> Not some honking coffe table book size
<Betsy> palmpilots are geting common enough that maybe someone will give away an old one
<MargaretI> paperback size
<Karen> Considering I have no $$, electronic books are out of the question in any form.
* JL ~~wanting B'Elanna's padd
<Betsy> there is that problem, Karen
<N`omi> me too, Karen!
<Betsy> But maybe sometime soon you'll have an income again
<Betsy> Any news from the Library of Congress?
* Patric saw a COOL ebook reader ad, but I cant remember the name. Its about the size of a galley..
<MargaretI> POD is expensive!
<CptButton> Baen is offerring some books in various e-formats for free now...
<jean> You're going to get one of those jobs you're interviewing for, Karen.
<Karen> Not if you really know the "system" as anything you get as income, they take away in like services.
<Patric> And the prices are coming down...
<Karen> I'm definitely in the running for two positions....received letters of qualification on both at the Library of Congress.
<Betsy> I know, but if you get a *good* job you will still wind up ahead.
<dejla> However, I'd be just as happy if some of the books I liked would come out on POD. I'd buy 'em... Norma Johnston, for one.
<N`omi> yes, my sitting-at-computer time is alreday taken up.  to read a novel I need to be curled up somewhere soft and warm!
* Patric has to AFK again.. Grr...
<AOlson> I have yet to see an ebook reader I had any desire for ... right now the winner is Glassbook because it is run by MS, and proprietary and doesn't display any books I'd be willing to pay for
<dejla> D.E. Stevenson...
<dejla> Nevil Shute...
<JL> Are there any qeustions anyone was saving for me?  Because I'm thinking I better get on upstairs and get stuff done.
<jean> The world currently will not support S~G novels as original paperbacks.  Should I stop writing because this can only be published as an e-book or an expensive POD?
<Betsy> NO!
<dejla> Absofragginglutely NOT!!!
<Broomstic> No - but some of us will need time to adapt
<MargaretI> some tech is going to make a fortune by designing a portable reader that can be read curled up, etc.
<N`omi> NO NO NO NO
<dejla> If it's out there, I'll read it in whatever format I can get it.
<jean> Well, you've got a few months, at least.
<Betsy> Like I said, I am more than willing to read ebooks if it's something I want to read.  I just haven't reached the point where I'll by an ebook 'on spec' as it were
<Karen> Of course you shouldn't stop writing, but some of us won't be able to afford it electronically....
<Broomstic> The tech is still indevelopement.  Someone will come up with something elegant... eventually
<AOlson> I do, but that's because so many books I want to read are e
<Betsy> Karen, if I buy the darn thing as an ebook, of course I will lend it to you
<AOlson> And its far cheaper, both in space and money
* Karen smiles.
<JL> Karen will most likely get a pass at editing it.
<jean> But electronic books are cheap from the publishers who will publish me.
<Karen> Hopefully by that time, I'll have a decent place with work and a job.
<MargaretI> but most of us would read sime~gen ebooks even if we hate the reading at the computer idea
<jean> Don't expect Random House e-books to touch a Sime~Gen novel!
* Karen used to help edit the novels.
<Broomstic> It's not cheaper if I have to buy a freaking couple hundred dollar piece of hardware to read it!
<Betsy> Broomstick, I can and will buy the piece of hardward in order to read S~G, so you too can borrow it.
<jean> All the publishers I am considering publish in three or four different formats, all of which can be read from your regular computer.
<AOlson> But most puters will display ebooks ... at least if they can run the majority of fancy browsers like you need to go to
<dejla> The newest version of round robin... the roaming e-book reader...
<Broomstic> Don't get me wrong - I wouldn't mind having the hardware - but I only have so much money
* N`omi is aiting for books on tape unedited versions of S~G novels
<Betsy> Besides, most ebooks are available in .html or other computer readable formats
<AOlson> If its pdf, you can convert it on Adobe's site to spoken format, N'omi
<Broomstic> And then in two years (or less) will your e-book reader be obsolete and you need to buy an entire new one?
<N`omi> yes! I cannot even see the whole front page of!
<Karen> We did have most of the novels in 4-track tape cassette format for the blind at one point.
<jean> I figure the good e-book readers will be available for under $100 by next Christmas.  Under $50 by the next one.
<N`omi> really? thanks Ann.. I will chek it out!
<Betsy> I'm not taking you wrong, Broomstick.  I've been poor.  I'm just willing to eat rice without fish for a couple months to get a new S~G novel, and having done it, I will share it with folks who can't afford the reader even with dietary cutbacks
<MaryLou> Hey, I can't see ANY page of
<AOlson> Yes, for thirteen dollar ebooks from publishers like random house ... i don't think so
<Broomstic> Need good screens, too - I have some vision problems that limit my time in front of computer screens
<dejla> And pretty soon, they'll give you one free when you subscribe to the e-book e-mail service, four books a month for a dollar...
<N`omi> you did? well, now I have an even better reason for getting signed up for them!
<Kaas> You ought to be able to at least see the one that says "get a new browser" Mary Lou
<Betsy> Oh, and there's lots of good stuff in pdf format, so now people can get that read to them.  cool!
<jean> Buyers are already giving Gemstar a piece of their minds about the new proprietary format that they can't load their old e-books into.
<CptButton> I've had a lot of trouble getting to lately...
<Karen> Then what some of you need is the talking software for vision problems.  I should know...I'm getting there, too.
<AOlson> I can't find a thing on ... but then I'm pretty limited in such skills
<Broomstic> Betsy - I'm not poor by any stretch.  I can afford an e-book reader - but I think they're overpriced.  I don't want to encourage overpricing
<dejla> 'Scuse me, folks, but the blood sugar level is dropping precipately... I must go and eat dinner.
<Betsy> Me either, Broomstick.  But we're talking *addiction* here
<Betsy> bye dejla!
<CptButton> dejla> Baen's Webscriptions is a bit like that. no free hardware though.
<AOlson> See you later, Deborah ... don't be such a stranger
<dejla> Nice to talk with everyone, have a wonderful new year, TTYL...
<jean> We are working on the problem.  Also on my todo list is to finish the low-graphics alternate top page I started before final exams ate all my time.
<Broomstic> And even if I do have *enough* money - there are priorities in my life.  I can't justify buying an e-book reader if it would deprieve someone else of something they actually need
* dejla says unfortunately I'm about as strange as you can get... BYE!
<N`omi> ohh wonderful Jean!! <clapping> then I can actually see the links I am prolly missing!
*** dejla has quit IRC
<Broomstic> Oh, ick, hate talking computers - machines should be seen and not heard
<AOlson> If you can't see well, or have other problems reading, then talking computers are the way to go.
<Karen> Then tell me that, Broomstick, as my eyes fail, and some of the problems are NOT repairable.
<jean> Someone will then have to take my work and pretty it up without slowing it down.
<AOlson> I was furious with MS when they pulled the hooks for the visually impared and others from Windows
<Seanara> Who was it who said "never trust any machinery more complicated than a knife and fork?" I think it was Lazarus Long in one of Heinlein's books.
<Kaas> I thought you could get that from Windows Update, Ann Marie.
* Karen giggles. "I think you're right, Seanara."
<AOlson> You can now, Kass ... this was a while ago ... too many people screamed
<jean> Windows 2000 doesn't have screen options for the visually impaired?  Win98 does--I don't need them, but I have run across them.
<Broomstic> My vision weirdness isn't just a matter of being able/not able to read - it more involves how long I can focus at a given distance
<AOlson> I think it was the first versions of win 95
<Broomstic> Also, I'm going to have to get bifocals soon - maybe that will solve some of the problem
<jean> I wear bifocal contact lenses--have for more than ten years.
<Broomstic> And I'm colorblind, which causes no end of problems with color-coding on websites
<Karen> Well, with developing cataracts AND macular degeneration, I am getting limited in what I can do without talking software.  I've been wearing bifocals since 1970.
<jean> It's amazing what is available today.
<JL> Will anyone here volunteer to clean up these logs for posting?
<Broomstic> Unfortunately, contacts are not an option for me.
<Betsy> Karen, I know that right now macular degeneration isn't fixable, but you should know there are some things in the research pipeline.
<Karen> I can do them quickly if I have a complete log from here.
<JL> And we have the Awards site that will now need updating? 
<MargaretI> and laser surgery can help slow it down
<Betsy> I can help with the cleanup if you tell me what should be edited out.
<Karen> Yes, I am aware of the research.  Right now, the cataracts are worse than the degeneration.
<jean> Karen, there was something on the news recently about treatment to stop macular degeneration in its tracks--a lie, I know, but NBC believed it enough to run the story.
<Broomstic> A new treatment just came on-line for MD - won't cure it, but (sometimes) slows it down
<Broomstic> It's called Visudyne
<JL> Karen - I think you have a complete log -- we only need the meeting log, and any excerpts from #sgtalk.  I really have to go.
<Karen> I can do a log in about 30 minutes to clean it up.
<Broomstic> WARNING! - Does not work for everyone, has side effects
<Betsy> Margaret -- the laser thing is for 'wet' macular degeneration.  Which is much rarer than the dry kind
<Karen> I have a complete #sgchat log.
<Broomstic> No, they're using laser for "dry" now, too - but still experiemtnal
<jean> Good, Karen!  Thank you!
<MargaretI> yes, but Karen is a MacLeod
<JL> Great -- now for the awards site.
<Betsy> oh!  I didn't know that, Broomstick.  BTW, everything has side effects and doesn't work for everyone
<jean> I'd better go--now it IS time to feed the dogs, and both of them are barking to come in.
<JL> I'm not even sure I have the keys to edit that site. 
* Karen grins...your point is what, Margaret? ~~mirth~~
<jean> Thank you all for coming!
<ECJB> I sent Karen the piece of the log from when I signed on to my disconnect, but I think I may have missed 15 minutes or so of #sgchat.
<JL> yes, and I'm up to quitting time.  You folks can stay and party as long as you like.
<Karen> I'm sure I have the keys to the awards site.
<Broomstic> I work with medical researchers - I get to hear about it sooner than most
<AOlson> Good to see you again, Jean and good luck on your latest novel
<Betsy> bye Jean
<jean> Bye for now!
<Broomstic> bye!
<MaryLou1> Bye!
<JL> It was a GREAT New Year's chat -- I want to preserve it for our historical record.
<MargaretI> possible familial inheritance of MD in that line
<JL> You folks are wonderful.  I'll see you all next New Year's.
<Seanara> hugs
<AOlson> See you later, JL
<JL> meanwhile, we really should meet more often.
<Karen> Never thought of that, Margaret.  Enough other problems from both lines.
<Betsy> Oh, I didn't know that Margaret
<ECJB> Cool...
<Betsy> Bye JL
<MargaretI> knew a couple of people who were helped by laser surgery
* Patric returns in time to wave bye to JL...
<MargaretI> both MacLeods
<JL> I'm leaving this on to log - leaving the office now.  Bye!
<Betsy> We should chat more often, but then you would have les writing time
<JL> Patric let me know about the Awards site update.
<Karen> interesting, Margaret....
<Patric> Ack..  Ok..  Hve to do it tomorrow.  Remind me, Karen?
<Broomstic> What sort of laser surgery, Margaret
<Karen> I'll try to remind you Patric.
<Patric> But, I need to boogie myself...  Do you have a clean log, Karen?  Mine is broken now..
<Seanara> Goodnight, everyone, and Happy New Year.
<MargaretI> basically it was the form which involves a proliferation of excess capillaries around the macular region
<Patric> Good night Seanara! 
* Patric missed...
<Broomstic> Ah, well, I'm glad they're doing better
<MargaretI> by sealing them before they could rupture
<Karen> I'll talk to her tonight, tell her you missed her.
<Broomstic> Hopefully, the good effects will last
<Patric> OK.  Do you have a clean log, Karen?
<MaryLou1> I'm going to have to go as well, so I can rest my eyes before tonight's game.  Goodbye!
<Kaas> Bye Mary Lou.
<AOlson> See you, Mary Lou
<Betsy> bye ML
<MargaretI> the number one Researcher/specialist is Dr Howard Schatz of San Francisco
<Patric> G'might MaryLou..  Thanks for coming!
<Karen> I have a clean discussion log.   I don't know about this one.
<Patric> Ok...  The discuss is the only major one, anyways...  Holler if you need me to send what I logged, for parts..
<Broomstic> I think I need to be going, too - very nice meeting you all
<ECJB> Patric...I have everything except about three minutes when Windoze died, and possibly about 15 minutes before I logged in.
<Karen> I think I'll sign off here anyway.....
<Betsy> Bye Broomstick!
<Broomstic> bye
<Betsy> Bye Karen
<Patric> Ok..  Bye Karen..  Thanks Eric..
<Karen> Night, everyone.  Have a good Year's Turning.
<Betsy> Oh, Karen, do you still need a home for a cat?
<AOlson> Bye Karen
<AOlson> Good luck with your new life
<Karen> I still have one needing a home, but I may sneak her in anyway.  My little b/w female makes a good only cat.
<Karen> I'll be in touch with everyone.
<MargaretI> if I were closer and didn't already have 4 indoor cats...
<Betsy> Keep in touch, as I could still take a cat if that would help (and if you ever got in a situation where you wanted to take the cat back, you could)
<Karen> Oreo's picture is on the Nelaryn website.
<Karen> I do have the apartment in Edgewood, MD which will allow 3 cats.
* Patric also scoots.. take care all, and thanks for coming...
<Betsy> What is up with that, Karen?
<AOlson> It was great to see you again Patric
<AOlson> Take care
<Karen> I have the apartment and the signed lease, mentioning 3 cats
<Betsy> Do you know if you are going to live there or somewhere else?
<Patric> Ditto..  Don't be such a stranger, Ann...  :)
* Patric vrooms...
<Karen> There, I hope.  I paid for January.
<Karen> I should be moving in mid-Feb if all goes right.
<Betsy> So how many cats are still with you?
<Karen> 4
<Karen> the 3 adoptions I had turned out very well.
<Betsy> Good!
<Karen> each has adapted well, and is very loved.
<Betsy> Excellent
<MargaretI> cats who have been well loved adapt easier to change
<Karen> that still leaves Oreo in limbo.  I'm hoping I can sneak her in.
<Betsy> If you can't and you think Oreo can cope with new cats (4) I'll take her
<Karen> Well, I don't know how well Bruce loved them, but I did....I miss them terribly.
<Karen> She's a little bully.
<Karen> Without Salem, though, she has mellowed a bit.
<AOlson> I glad to hear your kitties are doing well ... I was worried about them
<Betsy> That is OK, I have 1 little bully, 1 big tomcat (fixed) and an overgrown kitten and a former feral who can take care of himself
* Karen smiles. "I appreciate your concern, Ann."
<Betsy> I think that my guys can handle a little bully
<AOlson> Oh yes, Deborah mentioned one good way to get money is to advertise editing services on campus with flyers.
<AOlson> It works out quite nicely as it can be a cash job
<Karen> Interesting idea Ann Marie.  I'll have to see what I can do when I move.
<AOlson> Particularly as you can do it from home on your puter ... without having to commute other than to advertise
* Karen smiles at Betsy. "We'll see what happens before I move, if you need to take Oreo or not."
<Betsy> And you can get customers who are satisfied to put up more flyers by giving them a discount if they do
<Karen> I have a friend in Central Jersey who would take her and find her a home.
<Karen> I'll keep the editing idea in mind, if I find myself without steady work.
<AOlson> Or even if you do for a bit extra
<Betsy> Or even if you do ahve steady work but still have some free time on weekends.  It is usually cash money, no taxes, nothing taken out of your benefits
<AOlson> Or while waiting for the extra work
<Karen> Free time?  Helping on makes for free time??!!!
<Betsy> well, that depends on how much you're doing on, doesn't it?
<AOlson> I'd say 30-50/hour is a far more practical use of time
* Karen grins.
<Betsy> If you get a job that involves some down time, you can work on editing then. 
<AOlson> That's what editors get, Karen ... I've looked to try to hire them
<Betsy> I used to do clerical work, and when there was nothing to do, I wrote, read, etc
<Karen> That's not the information I have about editing.  The $50 range is high from what I learned.
<AOlson> That's what contract editors get, gross ... not the ones behind the desk working for someone else
<AOlson> Totally different game
<AOlson> For the sort of "Give me your paper and I'll edit it" thing, I would take less than 30 if I were you
* Karen nods. Maybe I should send you that information.
<AOlson> 60 if its the night before
<Karen> Understood....
<AOlson> The best I ever saw was thirty
<Betsy> I used to type papers, long ago, and I charged double or more the night before and regularly got it.
<AOlson> But what the person behind the desk got paid, that I don't know ... this was an agency
<Karen> Somewhere I have the rates for editing.  I haven't typed papers in ages.
<Betsy> half of less.  the agency takes at least half of what the cost is
<Karen> Always willing to learn new information.
<Betsy> I used to temp, got paid $7/hr, but the employer paid the temp agency $14-21/hr
<AOlson> Not really as necessary anymore ... to type other people's papers ... but editing is even more critical
<Betsy> No, my point was the night before it's due you can charge a lot more and get it
<AOlson> And if you're working freelance contract, then you get to deal with all the taxes, but you also get all the gross
<MargaretI> you can still find a lot of college students looking for someone to 'type'
<Betsy> And if you deal with college students, you get cash
<AOlson> Exactly
<N`omi> poor kaas! she was pasting what I missed!
<Karen> When I move, and know where I'll be, then I can work like that.
<N`omi> wb sorry!
* AOlson has been known to work for cash occasionally
<Betsy> Welcome back Kaas
<AOlson> wb Kaas
<AOlson> Even though I think I'd better get going
<AOlson> It was great to see all of you again. Its been forever it seems
<Betsy> Bye Anne Marie
<N`omi> it has been! it was great to see ya Ann!
<Karen> Take care everyone.
<AOlson> Bye all
<N`omi> Does anyone here collect dolls?
<Kaas> Both Mary Lou and I collect Breyer model horses, which is in the same genre as doll collecting.
<Karen> Never liked dolls, sorry.
<Betsy> You do?!  I used to!
<Karen> Some of those older Breyers are worth something.
<N`omi> I have two Carla Thompson dolls (NIADA), plus mnay of other less colector-value dolls... and wondered if anyone else did
<Betsy> Mine are from the 70s.  Is that what you mean?
<Kaas> Yeah I saw a blue florentine fighting stallion go for $2500 on ebay the other day
<Betsy> You gotta be kidding!
<N`omi> ots amazing what ebay does!
<Karen> I would think the older horses would be worth a bit, if they're in good condition.
<Betsy> They are in good condition
<N`omi> it will break my heart, but I am thinking of selling my most valuabkle obne.. I need a laptop and memory!
* Karen sighs. "Next thing I get once I have a decent job is a laptop. My desktop was a gift."
<Kaas> So was your last laptop, IIRC
<Kaas> Was returned broken....
* Karen smiles. "Yes, it was a gift. But I do not know it arrived broken."
* Karen apologizes.
<Betsy> Well, I should get off my butt and make dinner too.  I've been sitting here for how long?
<Karen> My timer says 3 hrs. but it could have been longer.
<Betsy> I think that's about right.  Bye y'all
<Karen> I should be going, too.  Cats to feed.
<Karen> Night, all.
N`omi:  this has been so kewl, Everyone! thansk you JL for doing this,
and everyone for coming!
ECJB waves and walks off into the sunset...only to trip on a rock.
*** Disconnected